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„There is no place like home“

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No. 38188
1,0 MB, 952 × 894
Do you believe in God ?
Why yes and why not ?
No. 38190
No. 38192 Kontra
There's a thread for this:
No. 38196
131 kB, 750 × 914
>Do you believe in God?

I suppose the most honest answer is that I was raised believing, and have never had a doubt which wasn't eventually met with a satisfactory answer. I'm sorry if that seems overly simplistic. There is no single thing which I can point to as having proved God's existence to me. It's a belief which I was handed as a child, but which has also grown and solidified over time through my experience, thoughts, and-for lack of a better word- prayers.
No. 38199
This one is different
Forgot to mention I believe in God
I have personally experienced something divine
While if a philosopher now sits with me and tells me his arguments I may not be able to refute even one of them but I have seen The world of heaven by my own eyes
No. 38201
No, I can’t bring myself to do so although I have tried.
No. 38202
Let me rephrase question
Do you belive in curses from imageboards?
Do you belive in ghosts?
Do you belive in rain cast down buy giant sky frog?
No. 38204
Like this, except being raised with not believing. I cannot claim to have any final proofs on anything doctrinal but have had proofs of the supernatural throughout my life before coming to satisfactory evidence, circumstantial and direct, pointing to Abrahamic faiths.

I will say however that Bill Hicks was right:
"I think God put you here to test my faith dude." The number one caustic faith eroding influence I've found is other religious people. I can understand being a fedora if you were raised around such people. Every day Evangelicals in particular instill in me a great sense of doubt.

Funny that. This thread being right here and I almost got hit by a car right after wondering if in a Rick and Morty style parallel universe I'd just been hit by a previous one except that in my parallel universe it never hydroplaned into me.

I often suspect there is a far greater degree of spookiness though and it's probably kind of funny that I tend to believe anyway and tend to largely see God as a generally goodly being or at least not sure "worship" is the right word but believe in Him anyway despite the fact my inward view of God is much more in a Lovecraftian sense. The Ned Flanders god is a false one to me, and as much an utterly alien concept as whatever the hell these Evanglicals and Muslim Jihadists seem to believe in a heresy of there be a physical afterlife as opposed to a strictly spiritual and metaphysical one. I'd prattle on but I'm tired sore and sick and suffice it to say you need Jesus at least as the prophet and that's really all you need to know right now in this life. Just don't listen to the bullshit of other people. I think that everyone is born with the truth and progressively strays further and further away because they listen to the insipid viewpoints of others. If you listen to people long enough they'll gouge out your eyes and tell you you're looking at heaven.
No. 38205
When you're an intelligent enough person it makes the sense of a personal god seem all the more miraculous. This is because it's like just imagine say playing a Civ game, and tracking and interfering in the lives of each individual citizen in each of your cities. I am honestly more impressed by this, or the concept of God becoming a man to converse with us, than I am with the creation of the whole universe because supreme power is one thing but finesse is another.

>curses random blah blah
If you take the Gnostic point of view as well then every contradiction vanishes. Like I said, you probably have been listening to morons. Said morons will extoll the virtues of any ideology and will find some way to make even the most sublime of systems seem completely idiotic and retarded. Of course I suppose it could conversely be said that the sharpest of intellects and greatest of orators could make even the most asinine theories sound plausible and concretely real but whatever.
No. 38207
>I cannot claim to have any final proofs on anything doctrinal but have had proofs of the supernatural throughout my life before coming to satisfactory evidence
There's this feeling of someone watching over me and protecting me.
But I have lost that after I've became an atheist for a while
For example In the past I'll be walking down the road for long distances when no one is around and suddenly a car appears and offers to give me a ride
This happened many times
But now it hasn't happened again after I became an atheist after watching some stupid videos on yt.
I know this is not going to convince anyone but it's enough for me to believe
No. 38208 Kontra
>blah blah
Litteraly all this topic in short tbh
No. 38212
Nuh, and wouldn't worship him of he was real tbh. He is the grandest of all slobs, most of his church being a close second.
No. 38213
No, I consider myself an empiricist and have never seen evidence of God, the soul, ghosts, self-awareness, intuition, or a moral imperative to recognize human rights, so I believe in none of these things. I consider religion to be a political institution though, and would likely choose to believe if I lived in a less secular country.
No. 38214
>why not ?
This question is not really correct. Non-believing is a default stance, there's no need for some sort of reasoning for not believing in something. Otherwise you'll also have to provide answers to millions of questions similar to those in the post >>38202.
No. 38215
I try to, but reality it dark and cruel, evil always wins, good always fails.
No. 38221
31 kB, 270 × 406
What did you experience? I've never experienced anything but I would really like to.

As for my beliefs, Spiritism makes the most sense to me.
No. 38222
>what did you experience
It's not like a miracle but just feeling that someone is looking after me
its small things really that make me feel protected
It may be confidences but I like to believe
My life as an atheist was very bad and sad
No. 38227
It really isn't at all though regardless of whether you believe it to be fictitious or not. Given that we are created by parents and raised from embryos it makes perfect sense for something like theism to be the default stance of man regardless whether you believe it a delusion or not. I personally cannot even remember a time I didn't believe in the spiritual and I have memory fragments going back to being a toddler.

The one does not preclude the other. Or in the words of Cersei regarding Tywin when asked I didn't think Tywin the sort of person to actually believe in gods
>oh no he does believe in them he just doesn't like them very much
Even Christianity, which is arguably one of the fuzziest of the religions, still has baggage from Judaism which depicts an utterly cruel, egotistical, megalomaniacal god.

Personally as I've gotten older I've increasingly found peace with a lot of things I found unnecessarily cruel or irrational like torching entire cities at a time, but then again, this came at the expense of Man as well. I'm not even sure why I seem to natively have a, how to say it, I guess a nicer view of or approach to people considering how wildly negative and misanthropic my view on humanity really is to the point where I now basically see God as being more than just good and patient in not burning whole nations to the ground. But also then again, I live in America.

I'm not getting into it right now but suffice it to say that it's sadly one of those things like the Matrix I guess, where it cannot be explained; you simply have to see and experience it for yourself. I've encountered quite a lot of the dark too. It'll just be a weird sort of coincidence for lack of a better word in many cases which supercedes mere chance or confirmation bias or mystical manipulation or any number of things for which I can more readily find plausible explanations. Actually speaking of which this reminds of not seeing something lately. I maintain my own inner code as well due to paranoia stemming from knowledge on exactly how both devils and men can manipulate people and create false narratives and false experiences. The dark side is some spooky shit indeed.
No. 38243
I'm not talking about God acting evil or good, I'm talking about reality being a hellscape. It is not the sinners who are being punished but the righteous ones. Steal, betray, murder, torture, humiliate, corrupt and you will go far and fly high. Be a modest religious person and see everything you love is getting destroyed, your ideals turned into joke, die miserable in the end while the sinners prevail. What's the point of scaring people with the Final Judgement, Hell, Damnation when it is here for ages, but in reverse.
No. 38267
The only religion my culture could offer me was killed way back ago by said culture and I acknowledge that is the main reason for my atheism. Now only Islam has vitality here, and if you are realistic you see it is the religion with future, even more stupider and as such inmune to what eroded Christianity.
No. 38268
I was deeply Christian for a few weird years in high school, but I couldn't resolve the logical contradictions of the faith, and lost it as soon as I hit a serious bump in life. Lingering fear of God remained for many years after, but a couple of years ago I realized that I didn't even believe in God enough to be afraid of him.

I don't like the idea of an agentive God. You can come up with a lot of fancy ways around the problem of theodicy, but the most basic criticisms you hear about "why does God let evil exist if he's omniscient and omnipotent?" from every edgy atheist are basically correct. Beyond what I like, I just see no evidence for it, at least not in the traditional Abrahamic sense. Christ was a perfect example to mankind, but the whole Christian (and derivative Islamic) theology built by later generations on top of his example doesn't seem true or just.

Westerners (including Muslims here) tend to simplify the matter to "does the God of Abraham as traditionally understood exist?", ignoring the other religious traditions that are often more ancient, equally elaborated, and generally more sound in the face of basic logical criticism. The only conception of God that I find both likely and likable is the Sikh version, or something close to it. Close enough are some schools of Hinduism. It's essentially panentheism.
No. 38277
>who are being punished but the righteous ones.
That is in effect what Christianity predicts and had predicted for itself particularly as we approach the endtimes, and that is part of why Christianity had a long subsequent tradition of martyrdom. Yet in spite of this it should be pointed out that while the early church thrived on its own persecution that it would only take a couple centuries before it had been achieving its own total conquest of the most powerful empire at the time. The martyrs would not live to see it but then again that's kind of a core part of the Christian equation. If you can't deal with that then you can try to acquire riches in this world, which quite frankly I think that anybody with a high enough IQ is able to see things in that same way as like joining the mob. Does a made guy enjoy the good life in the mafia for a time? Oh almost certainly. But at the same time he knows how precarious all his wealth and power is and fully expects to trade off his future for his own momentary vanity and ego, knowing that a day will come when his best friend either shoots him in the head or snitches on him and then he'll be in a hole in the ground at age 40 or 50 or he'll be spending the rest of his life in jail. It's a very short term and low IQ sort of a solution that the devil offers in much the same way that it's not terribly smart to knowingly be doing highly addictive drugs for a temporary rush that's going to put you dead or in jail or just a complete wreck of a human being within the next ten years, and that's basically what the temptations of this world offer doing: here try this heroin. You didn't really want to live forever or die free did you?

>my culture
>reason it eroded
Please explain these things. I'm not entirely sure to which things you're referring.

The main doctrinal problem I have is I guess ironically enough the core plank of most of Christianity, which is the sole divinity of Jesus. This makes Islam and Judaism make infinitely more sense to me unless you accept Gnosticism which neatly resolves all these issues and contraindications. If you've never been exposed to Gnostic thought and just went with whatever your moron preachers and priests had been saying then yeah I don't blame you for believing it's all a load of shit social control mechanism designed to create an unchallengeable Roman emperor whose lack of divinity can never be proven. Tbh I always thought worship of Jesus to be one of the queerest of notions.

I think that my core plank is and always was not even bothering with counting angels on pinheads so much as the primacy of the veracity of Revelations so that is what I concern myself most with. As Russia was saying, it becomes more and more a thing in I think most religious traditions including also Islam and Buddhism or Hinduism that we get closer and closer to a terrible age where being good and righteous is actively punished and the evil seemingly rewarded. I'd say we are definitely almost there in America and Russia at least and that would probably be a major cause in the less faithful falling away from the faith, but you should still be stalwart against it.
No. 38281
Commies hated Christianity so much that they were burning priests alive. Then there was a pretty big civil war, you might have heard of it. Right wingers won and established an explicitly Catholic authoritarian state. But instead of shoring up the faith, it just made people associate religion with the right wing authoritarians, and the country went turbo-left on every social metric as soon as the right wing authoritarians lost power.

t; semi-knower of Spain things

>unless you accept Gnosticism
I looked into it during my early post-faith phase, and although I would be perfectly happy living in a Gnostic cosmos, it all just feels like fanciful philosophizing. Yes, it resolves the terrifying aspects of Abrahamic religion, but it doesn't give me any reason to believe that this is the actual order of the universe.

>As Russia was saying, it becomes more and more a thing in I think most religious traditions including also Islam and Buddhism or Hinduism that we get closer and closer to a terrible age where being good and righteous is actively punished and the evil seemingly rewarded. I'd say we are definitely almost there in America and Russia at least and that would probably be a major cause in the less faithful falling away from the faith, but you should still be stalwart against it.
"And then thousands of years later things will go to shit and nobody will really believe in our faith... but don't worry, that's supposed to happen!"
That always sounded a bit like a cop out to me. There's more than a few reasons to think that the whole human project teeters on the brink, but there have been many past ages in which the good and righteous were punished. Arguably, that's the default state of humanity, so I don't see today's degenerate society as categorically different than past ages of degeneracy. There's unique structural factors contributing to it that didn't exist in the past, but we've also overcome a lot of shit that our ancestors had to deal with.

Again, I prefer the Indian view over the Abrahamic one. Maybe our world is going to shit, maybe permanently. But there have been other worlds and ages, and there will be other ones. There's an eternal duty as humans to live righteously, and die righteously if necessary, but the world just is - and if this world isn't at some point, there are probably other worlds and existences that will continue to be, regardless of our fate.

I'm curious as to what makes you believe in Abrahamic faiths specifically. What has always made me skeptical of personal religious experience as the justification for one specific faith over others, is the fact that people from all religious backgrounds have these experiences. I don't buy into hardcore perennialism, but again, I think there's the most truth in Sikhism. There can be great spiritual teachers and spiritual insight from any tradition. That doesn't make them all equally true, but it does mean that they're all getting at something. Sikhism, of course, being the actual perfect path to peace and understanding, but I actually believe them. Every argument I can bring against other religions, I can't against Sikhism. The only problem is that it's often treated more like a Punjabi ethnic cult instead of a universal faith.

Despite my skepticism, I'd be interested in knowing what makes you believe in an Abrahamic cosmos, as opposed to a more Eastern one.
No. 38282
Catalonia (got countryballed) was traditionally Catholic. Now the Church is regarded a sad joke if not socially dangerous (non LGBT-friendly, full of kiddy fiddlers, etc.)

Is not just the left, equal if not worst is capitalist 'creative destruction', it acts as acid against every traditional human institution, be it family, religion, tribe...
No. 38288
I've never understood this about modern history. Shouldn't the Catholics and various branches of Christianity be leftist and the atheists and Luciferians be right wing?
No. 38289
Depends on what you consider "right" and "left". Well, at least atheism is not a political movement or ideology, so atheists can be anyone from anarcho-communists to nazis. As for the commies' dislike for religion, it probably has its roots in the fact the church was historically one of the biggest landowners, that is, a privileged class, and so it doesn't really fit the classless society which is the end goal of the communist revolution. But technically, nothing prevents a Christian from espousing "leftist" views (that Jesuit Marxist from Mann's The Magic Mountain comes to mind).
No. 38291
But the church itself isn't a person, it is an organization, moreover one that if you follow anything at all about what Jesus said puts feeding, clothing, housing and so on the poor and downtrodden at its highest mark on the to do list solely below replicating belief in itself. Going by that one could easily regard or organizer churches as large aid societies and sprawling international communes and cooperatives.

I'm guessing that part of what must've happened in Europe is that in addition to the clergy getting tied up into monarchist and feudal politics that they eventually began getting land deeds not organizationally but for individual members of the clergy, thus putting monks who really should've been more like professional medics and charity workers taking a vow of poverty into being even more useless and pompous versions of the aristocracy. That being the case it seems to me that church reform is what was always what was needed. I can also see how that would lead to the church itself becoming incredibly separated from the laity until finally reaching the point that it outwardly was jockeying for position as a pillar of the system itself because it had been bought out and coopted by nobles, and had in return spread the message of such nonsense as claiming loyalty to your "lord" was the same as loyalty to the LORD which come to think of it makes a lot of things about the wording of the KJV make sense. Speaking of which what's particularly difficult for me to imagine is how any of these peasants tolerated their king being such a murderous adulterer that he outright schismed from the Catholic Church solely to create a church that was okay with his adultery. I can never take Anglicans seriously and I strongly suspect that may be part of why England in general is such a starkly atheist country.

>the classless society which is the end goal of the communist revolution.
I dunno. Something always struck me about it as like the counterfeit version, like a godless version of Christianity that wanted the State to become god and for the politburo to become its prophets. Outwardly the two things seem very similar to me, at least way more so than right wing ideologies which are fundamentally egocentric in a different sense, or rather in the way you have the utterly bizarre spectacle of people like Paul Ryan supposedly being a deeply religious man but who made his congressional staffers or whoever read Ayn Rands trash in spite of the fact Ayn Rand hated religion generally and Christianity particularly at least as much as the worst Communist. This as opposed to Christianity which is centrally an internationalist ideology that had always pretty much hated the very concept of nation or of any sense of border or government existing other than the Kingdom of God.
No. 38293
Just like any other organization, church can be corrupt as well, and just like in other organizations, for one decent person who genuinely cares about people and trying his best to help them there can be scores and scores of assholes who only in it for money and power. Also, despite claiming to be a non-political entity, churches were a part of politics from the very beginning, even in pre-Abrahamic times: think Egyptian priests who were a considerable political force, pretty much holding the rulers on a short leash. Judeo-Christianity is no exception, as the early Jewish priests had both legislative and tax-collecting (called "tithe") functions, which are normally associated with the state rather than the church nowadays. So, there you have it: despite ostensibly being a charity organization created with only good intentions, church also offers an opportunity to fill one's pockets, and that of course attracts a lot of people with flexible morals, who in turn the church into yet another mechanism of exploitation. This is also why I'm very skeptical about different non-religious charity organizations, especially here in Belarus, because it's extremely likely that the money they collect to help the orphans or world peace or whatever end up in bureaucrats' wallets and accounts.

Henry VIII may have been a piece of shit, but he definitely wasn't an idiot. He understood well that the church is a part of politics, so he just used it for his own ends. And peasants? Peasants were completely dependent on their landlords. So what could they do? Or rather, why should they do anything? Material needs always trump spiritual ones; after all, it doesn't matter much what confession you belong to when you're dead. There could be some trouble from more independent strata, like yeomen, but they too probably decided that they don't like the church enough to risk their well-being for it.

>godless version of Christianity that wanted the State to become god and for the politburo to become its prophets
Soviet flavor of socialism isn't exactly communism, you know. But yes, it's quite ironic that Marxism which supposedly aims to do away with ideologies altogether ended up turning into an ideology itself in the USSR, and quite a dogmatic one to boot. It wouldn't be as bad if the state didn't have a complete control over all spheres of life, but the Soviet ideology influenced not only economy and politics, but also arts and sciences, and not in a good way (cases in point: socrealism and lysenkoism).
No. 38308
CoE started using vernacular at services instead of just talking Latin at a bunch of illiterate peasants. People tended to appreciate understanding what was being said over a 'tradition' that had them sitting through an hour of gobbledygook. It also didn't happen overnight, the Lollards had existed before the Reformation and had left their mark, especially with Wycliffe's Bible.
No. 38310
I'm never going to be able to see Soviet Realism in any way shape or form as anything but blatantly superior to the absolute piece of piss trash garbage that American and other modern Capitalist culture had produced, from Piss Christ, to canned tins of shit, to those fucking abomination sculptures of I think he's Brazilian and look like malformed drops of molten lead that somehow was perverted into being even more crass and tasteless, to bubblegum pop and most 80s music, to most of Warhol, to most of Marcel DuChamp, to just on and on up to and including whatever the fucking hell you call nuStar Wars and capeshit. This is all the more evident of our blatant inferiority in the realm of painting with SocRealist bullshit. Was it actually good? Well no maybe not, but compared to just about every single MoMA installation it sure as hell was.

Besides which what I've found so far is that a lot of Soviet artists, composers and so on were kept on a pretty loose leash by the Party. They all pretty much seemed to basically only have to be all yeah yeah and Marx Lenin blah blah whatever to get crap past the censors and get funding from the state apparatus. I also have long suspected that the USSR would've just chilled out had the roles been reversed and much of the Capitalist world collapsed by the mid 90s. We may not have had as many cool vidya games on the one hand, but I still have doubt that the USSR wouldn't be producing computer games anyway and besides which we probably just lost out on a lot of supremely awesome technical and scientific advances as a result.

But again, you have to keep in mind your audience here. I know you are dealing with the horrible realities of your shared cultural experience, but the sheer volume of pure shit I must put up with on a seemingly daily basis here and the absolutely superstitious and outright doctrinal anti intellectualism of my country are only among a few of the things that have left me so completely jaded it is hard not to see the places where the differences among us were admirable. It also isn't like we don't have the same stuff going on here constantly where pretty much the only reason things like pornography and videogames are even legal at this point for good or ill is because it's directly in our Constitution, and even then this country has a rich history of censorship official and otherwise anyway. Like right now the GOP leadership is trying to convince the Justice Department to make combating pornography its number one priority for one example. It seems to me that a lot of stuff in the USSR particularly the later period was pretty hands off.