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„There is no place like home“

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No. 16233
29 kB, 620 × 413
29 kB, 620 × 413
Talk to me about the future of European Union.
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No. 16234
A whole hell of a lot better than the UK lel
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No. 16235 Kontra
>>16234
Oh fuck I thought you meant help me leave EU. Well, the future of the EU is looking potentially pretty good especially if they use their strategic positioning between Asia, Africa, and USA and the New World well economically. Of course the real main problem with the EU is that it is essentially a Franco-Germanic pet project. I don't know about how you guys think you're going to do EuroFor especially with the major contributor to a decent nuclear arsenal and naval/airborne force is leaving but I can't imagine it is terrible since you guys can probably piggyback a lot into HATO. Consider that the Euro is actually a lot stronger than my dollar. The main thing is whether EU can also deal with the imminent economic shock that is about to fuck the global economy (again) in 2019. We are in seriously deep shit.

And by we I mean me.
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No. 16282
This is an interesting read:
https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2018/11/24/why-we-have-borders/

tl;dr In order to have a functioning European Union, it has to be a true political union on the model of the United States, and not just an economic union. Economic union led by unelected bureaucrats will encourage a race to the bottom economically, and politically it will alienate the people from the concept of a united Europe.

The EU also has to be a partnership between relative equals, which means excluding everyone but rich Western and Northern Europeans. Not sure where Greece fits in there, but you'd probably be better off on your own. The EU should help out the rest of Europe by investment and trade deals that don't reach the level of the current EU. Especially migration seems to be disastrous for Eastern Europe - the massive population declines as a result are disproportionately among the young, which will lead to completely dysfunctional countries with 90% old pensioners and 10% young people, who will probably be even more eager to get the hell out.

Anyway, I'm done telling you about your continent.
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No. 16284
>>16282
I don't think that's necessarily true I mean for instance the whole bloc can just try and raise the relative prosperity of member states, so long as it doesn't remain just another mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation. The problem being, that's sort of what it just does, and their willingness to even flirt with the idea of giving something like Turkey's anti-democratic dictatorship more rights is disturbing, nor should Hungarian contempt for democracy and the rule of law be tolerated and the same goes for Romania. Part of the problem of course is this is trying to fit French-Anglo values on the rest of Europe.

With EE it probably isn't such a huge problem if those people keep sending back money and eventually return there and if there remain continued investment opportunities. I mean one big reason for the lack thereof is just a sense of instability whereas being a member state of the EU could make them great imvestment opportunities. Think of how much money you could make starting out at bottom of the barrel Ukraine tier with guaranteed returns on building up the country. Poland is an ongoing example of this.

And as for the whole "among equals" thing being needed and then you comparing it to USA, we have Mississippi and Lousiana mate. Those states are not even remotely our equals. Nor in fact is much of the midwest. The only truly relevant states are Texas, California, New York, Virginia, Florida, and the West Coast and New England. All the rest don't actually matter and a far number of them are actual third world shitholes. There is a reason so many army recruits come from there because there is no opportunity. You take a person like Britney Spears and that is basically an escape story from Alabama. It might not be the same pretense of muh hard luck story like Marshal Mathers with Detroit, but it is still basically just finding a way to leave Ukraine or Latvia behind. And yet we can still pretend that the Midwest is relevant by being part of us or giving constant federal aid to the third world shithole that is the South and sometimes they act like civilized human beings.
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No. 16290
>>16284
>for instance the whole bloc can just try and raise the relative prosperity of member states, so long as it doesn't remain just another mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation
The problem is that the EU is structurally biased towards being a mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation. You have an enforced currency and common market without enforced duties and obligations between member states.

>And as for the whole "among equals" thing being needed and then you comparing it to USA, we have Mississippi and Lousiana mate.
The difference between California and Mississippi is much less than the difference between Germany and the average post-communist country. That's what I mean by relative equals - Spain and Germany could perhaps coexist, but Latvia and Germany are too unequal.

>French-Anglo values
No such thing, but the French and Anglos are a part of wider Western European value system. Values surveys put the most disparate parts of America closer than even France and Germany or the UK, which surprised me, but still, it might be close enough. The difference between Germany and Latvia is much greater.
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No. 16295
>>16290
I sincerely doubt Latvia and Germany are further away. The prison and political culture itself I have no idea how those shithole states operate in such a blatantly anti-Constitutional manner. The Louisiana prison system for instance is at the level of Brazil. It is not even recognizable as America, which is saying something given how shit and corrupt our justice system already is. Alabama is already literally our trash bin in the same manner as Africa is the literal garbage dump of the West for everything from used batteries to scuttled ships https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/20/a-poop-train-from-new-york-befouled-a-small-alabama-town-until-the-town-fought-back/?utm_term=.be6904d135ff

So on one hand, this is after spending the last 150 years trying to rehabilitate the South, but on the other hand, you claim that there isn't such a huge difference. Latvia, Estonia, and all the rest have only had 30 years to recover from being part of Communist Russia. Poland itself is a very good example of a quickly recovering society. I can see the Baltics recovering. The problem with Greece is that the perfidious German met with Greek fiscal incompetence to create a sort of debt slave dynamic to the German banks. But I still think any country in the eurozone United by a stronger currency than the dollar has ample opportunity to get itself together in a way that they quite simply could not on their own, and moreover it represents a nice new market with incentives for development.

While economics is a big concern, I think that the general problem with the EU is they're trying to be like America, and America worked because a bunch of immigrants flooded the land and genocided the natives so it was a clean slate for us. This is not the case with indigenous Europeans, all of whom have centuries or millennia of shared history with dozens of unique cultures and languages. This is what's going to make it so much harder for them to cope.
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No. 16301
>>16295
I think the American divide is smoothed over in the data because there are a lot of people in every state that don't think like the majority. Even in California >25% voted for Trump, and all the ones I know would vote for the same stupid shit as Louisianans.

I also don't know when the values surveys I'm thinking of were conducted, but there is still the fact that we are one country and Europe isn't. There are a lot of things that just aren't talked about here that we all implicitly agree on, which might be disagreed on by people in different European countries.

Baltics and other former communist countries are not just different due to communism (and we can isolate the specific effects of communism by looking at East vs. West Germany). There's cultural differences going back centuries between different parts of the continent, because Europeans have never been united under one government, and don't come from one founding colonial country a mere few hundred years ago. Granted, America was settled by people from the most disparate parts of Britain that had their differences amplified by a massive founder effect, but those differences have also been mitigated by time spent under one government and mass culture.

>But I still think any country in the eurozone United by a stronger currency than the dollar has ample opportunity to get itself together in a way that they quite simply could not on their own, and moreover it represents a nice new market with incentives for development.
The East will never truly prosper because all their young people are moving West. The figures are astonishing, with something like 10-20% of most of these countries just up and vanishing - and you can be sure that those leaving are the most young and productive. It doesn't matter if Latvia or Romania get their shit together if there are no people to experience it.

>This is not the case with indigenous Europeans, all of whom have centuries or millennia of shared history with dozens of unique cultures and languages. This is what's going to make it so much harder for them to cope.
This is basically what I'm saying - despite all our differences, we're one people, or at least a handful of very closely related peoples. Europe isn't, and that extends deeper than obstinantly persistent tribal identities into deeper matters of culture and values. There might be a big difference between California and Mississippi in regards to individualist vs. survivalist ideology, but that difference is much greater between France or Germany and Eastern Europe.
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No. 16303
>>16301
>despite all our differences, we're one people, or at least a handful of very closely related peoples
No we aren't. Something like 13% of the country is black. We have considerable Asian populations including Far East, Indian, and Arab, not to mention the huge Hispanic population. And some of us regardless of ethnic background shared or not have startlingly different values, worldviews, and cultural norms.

>There might be a big difference between California and Mississippi in regards to individualist vs. survivalist ideology, but that difference is much greater between France or Germany and Eastern Europe
I actually would have said between France and Finland, since they have more sharply differing cultural values regarding self versus community. I mean really the thing is the EU isn't one big country and I'm not sure it was ever meant to be one big country. USA likewise often feels more like a confederacy with one shared tongue and some vague idea of valuing freedom, regardless of day to day reality. I would see it as difficult but again not so difficult as to not be doable. A bigger problem we have seen is what the migrant crisis opened up, which ultimately has less to do with cultural values than with shitty neoliberal economic policy although why Shariah zones that aren't even bothered with and turn into Molenbeek I don't know, except possibly as showing the bad side effect of a non-country regional entity that wants to act like it's some multicultural country so as to not upset its various members, but it seems that lately this is being hashed it with regards to Romania and Hungary.

A better thing to say is this: you member states shape up or we kick you out. I think that they are also in the process of turning the UK into a terrible warning and an example for all the other member states, and besides which it boils down to that--"shape up or you get booted out" which if it is serious I think you will see just about everybody realizing what a terrible idea that is and backing down to be in compliance with EU law.
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No. 16326
Kohl just got dissed: https://8ch.net/kc/res/48841.html
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No. 16328 Kontra
>>16326
By you, and you're not making the board better. Also sanitize your links to possible cancer http://anonym.to/https://8ch.net/kc/res/48841.html
Not that that comic wasn't accurate representation of what trashed krautchan
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No. 16329
I'd like to hear it first hand:
How is Greece doing?

>>16235
>Let me tell you about your union
:3
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No. 16350
The EU is in a ridiculous place at the moment. It is espousing an economic system that was pushed onto it by two countries (UK and the USA) who are currently undergoing low-scale civil warfare over this very system; it is trying to enact ambitious solutions to regional and even global problems without having any political legitimacy (in a trade bloc, one body having both legislative and executive power - the Council of Ministers - is fine; in a supranational union? Horrifying); and its attempts to position itself as a stable counterweight to the collapse of the American Republic project and the rise of a totalitarian China ring hollow when it can't even muster basic unity on the most mundane of topics (a Canadian trade deal ruined by Belgian farmers).

On top of this, the most vocal nations seeking greater European unity are often the first to abuse the system for national prestige. Think of the UK under Blair parroting EU solidarity while abusing it for the rebate and cheap Eastern European labour, or Merkel leveraging the EU for BMW all while claiming that other nations should home migrants.

The EU needs fundamental reform to save what genuinely is the best latent potential for humanity. It needs to stop being a trade bloc and instead a political union, in which the Parliament is the legislative, the ECJ is the judiciary, and the executive an appointed Senate. It needs a single fiscal regime pursuing economic policies that are not dogmatically classical liberal. Finally, it needs to capture nationalist feelings and funnel it into a common ideal of Europe, instead of attempting to merely stamp down on nationalist feeling (which is the single best means to glue disparate peoples under a common banner) when and where it arises. This last point does mean championing shared European symbols and tradition, such as Christianity, historical triumphs, and heroes.

The problem with these solutions is that too many Europhiles have one eye on European integration and one eye on their own politics. Conservatives want all the nationalist rhetoric but none of the financial obligations. Liberals want none of the nationalism or to see less emphasis on the economics. Leftists like the economic refocus but decry the nationalism; right wingers don't want any of it, even though it gives them a healthy outlet to resolve their ressentiment.

If the whole thing fails, it's because Europeans don't deserve Europe.
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No. 16354
>>16350

>If the whole thing fails, it's because Europeans don't deserve Europe
Well said.
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No. 16375
>>16350
Disagree, shouldn't it have an elected Senate as executive then?
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No. 16377
>>16375
Disagree with both of you.
I may just paste

"The institutions of the European Union are the seven principal decision making bodies of the European Union (EU). They are, as listed in Article 13 of the Treaty on European Union:

the European Parliament,
the European Council,
the Council of the European Union,
the European Commission,
the Court of Justice of the European Union,
the European Central Bank and
the Court of Auditors.[1]

Institutions are distinct from agencies of the European Union. "

There is absolutely no problem with those organs, their powers and their supervising powers upon each other. The only problem may be that the wrong people are leading it to be honest, which is something that nations have to fix due to their elective decisions (which brings us back to the nationalism-vs-union windmill of shit we may have to fix on an elevated level). Oh! And we have to rename one of the councils. Like WTF they even have the same logo.
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No. 16378
>>16377
>>16377
>Oh! And we have to rename one of the councils. Like WTF they even have the same logo.

Oh boy, even their websites suggest they are the same organ:

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No. 16379
>>16378
Looking through the members... the name of the Romanian president stands out like a sore thumb: "Klaus Werner Lohannis"
Are German names trendy in Romania?
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No. 16380
>>16379
I could imagine that he's a crypto German.
Come one, naming these organs like that has a lot of nazi/DDR aesthetics to it :DDD
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No. 16382 Kontra
>>16379
And to be more serious, there are some areas in Romania where German can be the most spoken Language afaik.
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No. 16386
>>16375
I don't know if this is correct, but senators used to be elected by the state legislature in the USA previously? I think this is a good system, and reflects how the Council of Ministers is elected now, by appointment from the member nations.

>>16377
Theoretically, yes, but it hardly works and there too many bodies. Only the Council of Ministers can propose legislation, and it is also tasked with discharging that same legislation. In a trade bloc, this is fine, as the Council acts as the representatives of the trading nations, but in a political bloc it is dangerous. The Parliament - which just now can only vote against legislation and delaying for a while, thus acting more like a second chamber - should be the arena in which legislation is proposed, leaving executive functions to the Council of Ministers (which is appropriate for this task, as it can liaise with their respective nations on how best to implement).
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No. 16388
>>16379
German names are really trendy among Ukrainian & Russian sluts. The girls are as cockhungry for the Westerners as they never were before and often use made-up German surnames on social networks. Look at how many Western Europeans/Americans aren't satisfied with migrants/blacks/latinos and how common are false flagging cuckold fantasies on imageboards, now imagine my frustration when I see it there. And, unlike these stories about girls and the blacks in the West, this is real and girls do prefer Westerners over Slavs.
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No. 16389
>>16382
Well, the Siebenbürgensachsen have mostly returned to germany or have been deported in accordance with the Potsdam agreement.
Same goes for the Schwaben who used to inhabit the Banat area and Temeschvar.
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No. 16392
>>16388
If it makes you feel any better I would only want Slavs Jews and the Irish pls gibe Yulia Slavoshenko :-DDD
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No. 16393
>>16379
I have a German surname myself. I don't know about Romania but here German settlement and their later integration was so widespread that nobody bats and eye on them.
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No. 17553
>>16233
>the future of the European Union

I think the more precise question would be what's the future of the European Integration Process because as far as I see the EU, it is a still ongoing process of states giving their sovereignty to a supra-national organization, eventually (perhaps?) dissolving into something similar like the USSR/USA? From a neo-functualist point od view that would be inevitable due to the nature of the integration process so far and while neo-functiolism has been criticized as based in little to no empirical evidence outside the EU cotext, it seems to have a valid point in the fact that indeed, most of the bureaucratic structures and European law implementations will only work if you continue to integrate. One might naturally ask here whether or not that is a wishful outcome. Well, that's left to the national member states still and I see a drawback here, mostly because the willingness to integrate decreases steadily. Maybe because the narrative of a peacekeeping organization in post-World War 20th century doesn't work anymore, maybe because the EU has constantly be blamed by national governments or abused for unpopular law passing or - and that's what convinces me the most at the moment - the EU has literally no identification momentum, as national states do because seriously - how many people in Europe would identify themselves as European when it's not meant in a context of what is not European?
Anywho, I find the concept of that 'Europe of different speeds as they call it quite convincing and realistic given the status quo. I don't see a future for small national states to deal with global problems such as international terrorism, climate change and you name it. Respecting the principle of subsidiarity, a (politically) strong EU might be one solution to deal with this issues in near future but it sure has to redefine itself and also communicate itself better to the European citizens because as for now, it's an Elite project giving advantages mostly to other Elites (i.e. free travel, Erasmus etc. hardly concerns a fracture of the population)
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No. 17608
>>17553
I can say that I identify more with the EU than with the German government. And I identify more with Europe than with Germany.

Just wanting to let you know this exists.
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No. 17609 Kontra
2,3 MB, 200 × 150, 0:05
>Help me leave KC..

>go to ernstchan
>open up politics thread

ach, bernd...
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No. 21090
>>17608
I cant really say the same thing however much i wished i could.
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No. 21091
>>17553
I find what you wrote well articulated. Have you studied something related?
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No. 21092
>>17608
Somewhat this. We recently had an election here and it was fucked up really. Then I watch an interview with two politicians from the European parliament one liberal and one from our "nationalistic" party SD, you might have heard about them. What struck me the most is that even the SD guy sounded reasonable. I might not agree with him but he didn't sound insane. It appears like the EU is where political parties send their politicians that are to good to keep at home because that would upset the balance of insanity. Sort of like how all smart people get sent somewhere in A brave new world.

I realized some years ago that I have more in common with some people out in Europe then I have with some of my neighbours and I can tell that if my neighbours where in charge there would be no future for the European Union or Sweden for that matter.
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No. 21096
Will the very specific context that allows the EU to keep existing... Prolong itself in the future?
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No. 21105
>>16284
>Hungarian contempt for democracy
Where do you get these nonsense?
People are electing Fidesz over and over again because socialists and liberals successfully threw away their credibility between 2002-2010 (there are some support for real socialist ideas - both Fidesz and Jobbik use such ideas but rarely those who claim to be socialists - but liberals will always remain marginal power) and the Jobbik (and now Mi Hazánk) is too radical for them, they are basically considered as fascists and nazis. The large number who don't vote feels these parties aren't representing their ideas at all, they turned away from politics because the are disenchanted by the repeated failures and corruption of the governing parties and not because they resenting democracy.
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No. 26233
meh while this chan is quality is as slow as death. So i hope you dont mind if i bump this thread.

The European Union as exists now deserves to and will collapse. Prove me wrong.
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No. 26238
>>26233
>prove me wrong
What is this vierkanal /b/ back in like 2008?

You're not really putting any salient point forth with which to argue because you haven't given any hint what precisely you find wrong it. >if you hate EU so much why do you keep using their proxy? Checkmate non-unionists

I am also of conflicted opinion as someone not part of it. On one hand I am sincerely convinced that EU itself is part of a global Satanic plot to install a fascist world dictatorship governing through each continental union each of which in turn manages its national provinces. I believe this conspiracy to be a horrible form of cyberpunk neo-Capitalist and fascist dystopia, which is clearly the direction in which we've been heading (I to this day have no fucking clue why anyone believes controlled opposition shills like Alex Jones who claim that it's "Socialist" except I suspect most of these people are way too stupid to understand everything they hate has nothing to do with Socialism and everything to do with the inevitable conclusion of modern transnational Capitalism, including the fact it's captured markets run by oligopolies pretending to be "free markets" but that's a different discussion). As such, I fully oppose the EU due in part to my likely peculiarly American paranoias rooted in fatistani fixations on religious fanaticism, tyranny/liberty, and so on.

But then on the other hand you've actually got the fact that EU itself is and always has been Europe's best hope for surviving and remaining both free and independent as well as a relevant global power bloc, because let's be honest here as it stands now the entirety of Europe has been nothing but a plaything for foreign powers for three quarters a century now. I am sorry but those are just the cold hard facts of the matter. None of you guys have ever actually been completely world relevant or actual big players since the close of WWII. Ever since the first world war fractured all your guys' empires and then further destroyed yourselves yet again a couple decades later all actual power of the European states has been lost.

It fascinates me how much Europeans think they actually matter to the world to this day. You guys often act as if the entire last century of history never even happened, and Britain is by far the worst offender in that regard. Hate to break it to you but all you guys lost your empires fully a century ago. You began losing your colonies and global clout ever since the spectacular clusterfuck that was WWI fractured and destroyed many of the European nation states/empires, and thanks to a certain country burning your continent to the ground yet again you not only lost every single last one of your colonies and dissolved any semblance of being an imperial or colonial power, but even more glaringly, you have essentially been occupied since then.

What most of you seem not to understand is your are quite simply not world relevant anymore beyond what the major powers of the world see and use you as, which for a long time has been USA and Russia, and quite soon it's also going to include China. Once the soft power shield of the US falls you're all going to be in for a very rude awakening as a much less ambivalent power takes hold in the vacuum and there is no state in all of Europe that has any hope to resist them. Not a single one of you even has a strong and effective standing army. The Germans have a military, as do the Brits and maybe even the French to a degree, but no one in Europe has the sole military capacity to defend their own interests, and in fact the only thing keeping any of you afloat militarily is the French and British nuclear deterrence, which need I remind you none of you guys will have if both France and Britain leave the EU.

You also don't have as strong economies as you seem to think you do, and while perhaps Germany could stay afloat and fight for it's own economic interests itself doesn't even have the clout and economic might without a massive trade bloc.

Mark my words the only person here who isnt a complete buffoon is Sweden because he seems to understand these things very well. You have all been occupied for a long time now. You still have our not so imposing US military bases and US military presence. You had decades of terrorism and intrigue because your other occupying power was busy playing games with this one, often at your own expense. What do you think is going to happen when China finds new leadership and finally starts getting pushy? They will respect you and your sovereignty and concerns even less. They will be unscrupulous business partners and will do everything they can to wreck your economies and make you their own captured market who sees Europe as nothing more than a Disneyworld with few interesting trinkets to loot from your museums if it strikes their fancy. Close to half of you already had to put up with this after living under Russian rule, and the moment the EU fully fractures you'll get to deal with the Russians yet again. Just imagine being fully at their mercy to do whatever they want or they'll cut off your heating and electricity in the winter because they got butthurt at you for some reason. Just imagine not having any coordinated European or American/NATO defense efforts when Russia finally decides to stop penetrating your airspace and crusing around in your territorial waters with nuclear capable subs and warships.

Better yet go and ask Ukraine what it's like dealing with the Russians when they think you are weak and no one else will come and help you. Or go and ask Georgia about that.

Do not misinterpret this as fatposting; I already told you part of the cost of being a US plaything. Your culture is now American. Your industries are mostly all at the mercy of American financial interests. Some of you live in countries where they don't even see their own language as relevant anymore and speak English with each other in their own countries.

All of these things happened precisely because you didnt have EU. You are only just barely being saved from further irrelevance and humiliation by the fact USA is largely soft power and doesnt seem to have the same ambitions or capacity to inflict violence on you as others and that's only because we already did--repeatedly--and fully absorbed you into our sphere of influence to the point of being borderline vassal states at times.
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No. 26239
There's the adage that hard times create strong men, that strong men create good times, and good times create weak men.

Europe is currently enjoying its good times and is full of weak men because you've spent decades now under the protective umbrella of US influence. Your countries are like kids who never left their parents house, never had to live on their own, and currently take for granted the unprecedented era of largely peace in which you grew up, particularly for a full generation of European men for whom impending nuclear war was never an actual threat in their adult lives. In short, your nationalists are weak and effeminate imbeciles who can't even conceptualize what actual hard times look like, and if you keep listening to those weak effeminate men you're about to experience hard times when the EU itself splits apart and all those good times are destroyed by this foolishness. It will ruin your currencies. It will ruin your economy. It will weaken your states and invite ruin as foreign powers dismantle the good times for their own foreign benefit.

Instead strengthen your trade bloc. Strengthen your own political coordination, strengthen your political resolve, and strengthen your coordinated military capacity under EUROFOR to replace NATO. This is the only way you're ever going to be able to fully advocate for yourselves and national interests while protecting yourselves from foreign influences.

I will offer my last warning to you which is that you have had times where Europe waxed to full power and then waned because you were held together by largely one central power. You're going to need leadership, sure, but you're also going to need sincere collective action under whatever executive directorate focusing your collective will. The inefficiency and inefficacy of Brussels is not the problem of EU itself, but simply a failure of leadership, which is exactly the same failure of European leadership you've all proven yourselves quite capable of achieving all by yourselves, with Prime Minister Boris Johnson likely being the herald of a new era for memeing on the suffering of Britain. My suggestion here is to find better leadership. You need decisive action and decisive leadership which is the main problem atm but you're going to need to avoid having just one defacto power, which the exit of Britain from the EU threatens to achieve which could help force a collapse if a particular boldly ambitious yet idiotic Frenchman or German decided to start pushing the other members around rather than seeing them as equals and being merely a figurehead for their voice and interests.

Good enough?
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No. 26241
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>>26239
>Europe is currently enjoying its good times and is full of weak men because you've spent decades now under the protective umbrella of US influence.

Congratulations, this is the retardest Amifatpost I have ever read on EC.
The truth is:
Germany would haven bee so much better off, if we could freed us from the yoke of the US occupant.
We never had problems with Russia or the SU. They helped us during Brandt to sustain a trustworthy supply with petroleum products. The most important gas and oil pipelines supplying Germany were built then. Without the wise Brandt government and the imports from the SU, Germany would have never become so rich like it became.
We don't need to waste enormous amounts of money for the military-industrial-complex, because other nations like us. Your fucking US is pressuring to do so and to waste billions of Dollars for greedy superrich owning the military-industrial-complex.

Fucking US even maroonend Colorado beetles to harm the GDR agriculture.
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No. 26247
>>26241
>Defending the traitor and political murderer Herbert Frahms
I hope this post is ironic.
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No. 26250
7 kB, 227 × 222
>>26247
>Not being honestly enough to agree that Brandt was the best chancellor and did so much good things for the German folk.

Measly as you always have been, Pipi-News-Scum.
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No. 26251
>>26250
>Not being honestly enough to agree that Brandt was the best chancellor and did so much good things for the German folk.
Like letting 2 million Turks into the country. Like starting an economic policy of ever increasing debt.
Like having communist spies placed in the highest offices.
Like increasing the stability of the GDR-regime by political means.
With his treaties and with Poland and the USSR, he started to sell 1/3 of Germany. This was later finalized by the half-jew Hennoch Kohn.

Herbert Frahm hated Germany. He was a communist and a murderer. This is why he had to go into exile in the early 30s.

(User was banned for this post)

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No. 26255
>>26251
well early migrants were beneficial for germany. USA rebuilt and funded west germany after ww2 and germans had population problem thanks to wasting their youth for dreams of an uneducated corporal.

>>26239
Historical determinism is bullshit. Also that quote is very example of confirmation bias.
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No. 26263 Kontra
I wish kohlpests would go back to where they came from.
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No. 26273
>>26251
Shame this caught him a ban. I have no idea about this part of German history or who these people were.
t. Interested
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No. 26283
65 kB, 450 × 600
>>26273
You can google this shit.
He makes interpretations of historic events and processes thru a person as if one person is fully responsible for history. It's kohl tier brainlet style posting, ban was right. Good to see the mods still care and ray away the cancer.
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No. 26299
>>26283
I'm not really arguing banning brainlets just I want to know more on this topic and what happened, preferably from an intelligent perspective
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No. 26305
>>26299
Google Willy Brandt, the wiki should give info about his foreign policy including the Ostverträge, agreements between Germany and SU countries including the DDR and giving up the territories of 1937 Germany, today it is Poland etc. historians noted that Hitler sold these territories by going to war and loosing it, nobody needs these territories anyway
Not sure when the turkish "guest workers" came, but afaik they came later then the greeks, spainiards and italiens .