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„There is no place like home“

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No. 16233
29 kB, 620 × 413
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Talk to me about the future of European Union.
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No. 16234
A whole hell of a lot better than the UK lel
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No. 16235 Kontra
>>16234
Oh fuck I thought you meant help me leave EU. Well, the future of the EU is looking potentially pretty good especially if they use their strategic positioning between Asia, Africa, and USA and the New World well economically. Of course the real main problem with the EU is that it is essentially a Franco-Germanic pet project. I don't know about how you guys think you're going to do EuroFor especially with the major contributor to a decent nuclear arsenal and naval/airborne force is leaving but I can't imagine it is terrible since you guys can probably piggyback a lot into HATO. Consider that the Euro is actually a lot stronger than my dollar. The main thing is whether EU can also deal with the imminent economic shock that is about to fuck the global economy (again) in 2019. We are in seriously deep shit.

And by we I mean me.
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No. 16282
This is an interesting read:
https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2018/11/24/why-we-have-borders/

tl;dr In order to have a functioning European Union, it has to be a true political union on the model of the United States, and not just an economic union. Economic union led by unelected bureaucrats will encourage a race to the bottom economically, and politically it will alienate the people from the concept of a united Europe.

The EU also has to be a partnership between relative equals, which means excluding everyone but rich Western and Northern Europeans. Not sure where Greece fits in there, but you'd probably be better off on your own. The EU should help out the rest of Europe by investment and trade deals that don't reach the level of the current EU. Especially migration seems to be disastrous for Eastern Europe - the massive population declines as a result are disproportionately among the young, which will lead to completely dysfunctional countries with 90% old pensioners and 10% young people, who will probably be even more eager to get the hell out.

Anyway, I'm done telling you about your continent.
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No. 16284
>>16282
I don't think that's necessarily true I mean for instance the whole bloc can just try and raise the relative prosperity of member states, so long as it doesn't remain just another mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation. The problem being, that's sort of what it just does, and their willingness to even flirt with the idea of giving something like Turkey's anti-democratic dictatorship more rights is disturbing, nor should Hungarian contempt for democracy and the rule of law be tolerated and the same goes for Romania. Part of the problem of course is this is trying to fit French-Anglo values on the rest of Europe.

With EE it probably isn't such a huge problem if those people keep sending back money and eventually return there and if there remain continued investment opportunities. I mean one big reason for the lack thereof is just a sense of instability whereas being a member state of the EU could make them great imvestment opportunities. Think of how much money you could make starting out at bottom of the barrel Ukraine tier with guaranteed returns on building up the country. Poland is an ongoing example of this.

And as for the whole "among equals" thing being needed and then you comparing it to USA, we have Mississippi and Lousiana mate. Those states are not even remotely our equals. Nor in fact is much of the midwest. The only truly relevant states are Texas, California, New York, Virginia, Florida, and the West Coast and New England. All the rest don't actually matter and a far number of them are actual third world shitholes. There is a reason so many army recruits come from there because there is no opportunity. You take a person like Britney Spears and that is basically an escape story from Alabama. It might not be the same pretense of muh hard luck story like Marshal Mathers with Detroit, but it is still basically just finding a way to leave Ukraine or Latvia behind. And yet we can still pretend that the Midwest is relevant by being part of us or giving constant federal aid to the third world shithole that is the South and sometimes they act like civilized human beings.
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No. 16290
>>16284
>for instance the whole bloc can just try and raise the relative prosperity of member states, so long as it doesn't remain just another mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation
The problem is that the EU is structurally biased towards being a mechanism of shitty neoliberal exploitation. You have an enforced currency and common market without enforced duties and obligations between member states.

>And as for the whole "among equals" thing being needed and then you comparing it to USA, we have Mississippi and Lousiana mate.
The difference between California and Mississippi is much less than the difference between Germany and the average post-communist country. That's what I mean by relative equals - Spain and Germany could perhaps coexist, but Latvia and Germany are too unequal.

>French-Anglo values
No such thing, but the French and Anglos are a part of wider Western European value system. Values surveys put the most disparate parts of America closer than even France and Germany or the UK, which surprised me, but still, it might be close enough. The difference between Germany and Latvia is much greater.
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No. 16295
>>16290
I sincerely doubt Latvia and Germany are further away. The prison and political culture itself I have no idea how those shithole states operate in such a blatantly anti-Constitutional manner. The Louisiana prison system for instance is at the level of Brazil. It is not even recognizable as America, which is saying something given how shit and corrupt our justice system already is. Alabama is already literally our trash bin in the same manner as Africa is the literal garbage dump of the West for everything from used batteries to scuttled ships https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/20/a-poop-train-from-new-york-befouled-a-small-alabama-town-until-the-town-fought-back/?utm_term=.be6904d135ff

So on one hand, this is after spending the last 150 years trying to rehabilitate the South, but on the other hand, you claim that there isn't such a huge difference. Latvia, Estonia, and all the rest have only had 30 years to recover from being part of Communist Russia. Poland itself is a very good example of a quickly recovering society. I can see the Baltics recovering. The problem with Greece is that the perfidious German met with Greek fiscal incompetence to create a sort of debt slave dynamic to the German banks. But I still think any country in the eurozone United by a stronger currency than the dollar has ample opportunity to get itself together in a way that they quite simply could not on their own, and moreover it represents a nice new market with incentives for development.

While economics is a big concern, I think that the general problem with the EU is they're trying to be like America, and America worked because a bunch of immigrants flooded the land and genocided the natives so it was a clean slate for us. This is not the case with indigenous Europeans, all of whom have centuries or millennia of shared history with dozens of unique cultures and languages. This is what's going to make it so much harder for them to cope.
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No. 16301
>>16295
I think the American divide is smoothed over in the data because there are a lot of people in every state that don't think like the majority. Even in California >25% voted for Trump, and all the ones I know would vote for the same stupid shit as Louisianans.

I also don't know when the values surveys I'm thinking of were conducted, but there is still the fact that we are one country and Europe isn't. There are a lot of things that just aren't talked about here that we all implicitly agree on, which might be disagreed on by people in different European countries.

Baltics and other former communist countries are not just different due to communism (and we can isolate the specific effects of communism by looking at East vs. West Germany). There's cultural differences going back centuries between different parts of the continent, because Europeans have never been united under one government, and don't come from one founding colonial country a mere few hundred years ago. Granted, America was settled by people from the most disparate parts of Britain that had their differences amplified by a massive founder effect, but those differences have also been mitigated by time spent under one government and mass culture.

>But I still think any country in the eurozone United by a stronger currency than the dollar has ample opportunity to get itself together in a way that they quite simply could not on their own, and moreover it represents a nice new market with incentives for development.
The East will never truly prosper because all their young people are moving West. The figures are astonishing, with something like 10-20% of most of these countries just up and vanishing - and you can be sure that those leaving are the most young and productive. It doesn't matter if Latvia or Romania get their shit together if there are no people to experience it.

>This is not the case with indigenous Europeans, all of whom have centuries or millennia of shared history with dozens of unique cultures and languages. This is what's going to make it so much harder for them to cope.
This is basically what I'm saying - despite all our differences, we're one people, or at least a handful of very closely related peoples. Europe isn't, and that extends deeper than obstinantly persistent tribal identities into deeper matters of culture and values. There might be a big difference between California and Mississippi in regards to individualist vs. survivalist ideology, but that difference is much greater between France or Germany and Eastern Europe.
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No. 16303
>>16301
>despite all our differences, we're one people, or at least a handful of very closely related peoples
No we aren't. Something like 13% of the country is black. We have considerable Asian populations including Far East, Indian, and Arab, not to mention the huge Hispanic population. And some of us regardless of ethnic background shared or not have startlingly different values, worldviews, and cultural norms.

>There might be a big difference between California and Mississippi in regards to individualist vs. survivalist ideology, but that difference is much greater between France or Germany and Eastern Europe
I actually would have said between France and Finland, since they have more sharply differing cultural values regarding self versus community. I mean really the thing is the EU isn't one big country and I'm not sure it was ever meant to be one big country. USA likewise often feels more like a confederacy with one shared tongue and some vague idea of valuing freedom, regardless of day to day reality. I would see it as difficult but again not so difficult as to not be doable. A bigger problem we have seen is what the migrant crisis opened up, which ultimately has less to do with cultural values than with shitty neoliberal economic policy although why Shariah zones that aren't even bothered with and turn into Molenbeek I don't know, except possibly as showing the bad side effect of a non-country regional entity that wants to act like it's some multicultural country so as to not upset its various members, but it seems that lately this is being hashed it with regards to Romania and Hungary.

A better thing to say is this: you member states shape up or we kick you out. I think that they are also in the process of turning the UK into a terrible warning and an example for all the other member states, and besides which it boils down to that--"shape up or you get booted out" which if it is serious I think you will see just about everybody realizing what a terrible idea that is and backing down to be in compliance with EU law.
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No. 16326
Kohl just got dissed: https://8ch.net/kc/res/48841.html
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No. 16328 Kontra
>>16326
By you, and you're not making the board better. Also sanitize your links to possible cancer http://anonym.to/https://8ch.net/kc/res/48841.html
Not that that comic wasn't accurate representation of what trashed krautchan
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No. 16329
I'd like to hear it first hand:
How is Greece doing?

>>16235
>Let me tell you about your union
:3
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No. 16350
The EU is in a ridiculous place at the moment. It is espousing an economic system that was pushed onto it by two countries (UK and the USA) who are currently undergoing low-scale civil warfare over this very system; it is trying to enact ambitious solutions to regional and even global problems without having any political legitimacy (in a trade bloc, one body having both legislative and executive power - the Council of Ministers - is fine; in a supranational union? Horrifying); and its attempts to position itself as a stable counterweight to the collapse of the American Republic project and the rise of a totalitarian China ring hollow when it can't even muster basic unity on the most mundane of topics (a Canadian trade deal ruined by Belgian farmers).

On top of this, the most vocal nations seeking greater European unity are often the first to abuse the system for national prestige. Think of the UK under Blair parroting EU solidarity while abusing it for the rebate and cheap Eastern European labour, or Merkel leveraging the EU for BMW all while claiming that other nations should home migrants.

The EU needs fundamental reform to save what genuinely is the best latent potential for humanity. It needs to stop being a trade bloc and instead a political union, in which the Parliament is the legislative, the ECJ is the judiciary, and the executive an appointed Senate. It needs a single fiscal regime pursuing economic policies that are not dogmatically classical liberal. Finally, it needs to capture nationalist feelings and funnel it into a common ideal of Europe, instead of attempting to merely stamp down on nationalist feeling (which is the single best means to glue disparate peoples under a common banner) when and where it arises. This last point does mean championing shared European symbols and tradition, such as Christianity, historical triumphs, and heroes.

The problem with these solutions is that too many Europhiles have one eye on European integration and one eye on their own politics. Conservatives want all the nationalist rhetoric but none of the financial obligations. Liberals want none of the nationalism or to see less emphasis on the economics. Leftists like the economic refocus but decry the nationalism; right wingers don't want any of it, even though it gives them a healthy outlet to resolve their ressentiment.

If the whole thing fails, it's because Europeans don't deserve Europe.
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No. 16354
>>16350

>If the whole thing fails, it's because Europeans don't deserve Europe
Well said.
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No. 16375
>>16350
Disagree, shouldn't it have an elected Senate as executive then?
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No. 16377
>>16375
Disagree with both of you.
I may just paste

"The institutions of the European Union are the seven principal decision making bodies of the European Union (EU). They are, as listed in Article 13 of the Treaty on European Union:

the European Parliament,
the European Council,
the Council of the European Union,
the European Commission,
the Court of Justice of the European Union,
the European Central Bank and
the Court of Auditors.[1]

Institutions are distinct from agencies of the European Union. "

There is absolutely no problem with those organs, their powers and their supervising powers upon each other. The only problem may be that the wrong people are leading it to be honest, which is something that nations have to fix due to their elective decisions (which brings us back to the nationalism-vs-union windmill of shit we may have to fix on an elevated level). Oh! And we have to rename one of the councils. Like WTF they even have the same logo.
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No. 16378
>>16377
>>16377
>Oh! And we have to rename one of the councils. Like WTF they even have the same logo.

Oh boy, even their websites suggest they are the same organ:

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No. 16379
>>16378
Looking through the members... the name of the Romanian president stands out like a sore thumb: "Klaus Werner Lohannis"
Are German names trendy in Romania?
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No. 16380
>>16379
I could imagine that he's a crypto German.
Come one, naming these organs like that has a lot of nazi/DDR aesthetics to it :DDD
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No. 16382 Kontra
>>16379
And to be more serious, there are some areas in Romania where German can be the most spoken Language afaik.
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No. 16386
>>16375
I don't know if this is correct, but senators used to be elected by the state legislature in the USA previously? I think this is a good system, and reflects how the Council of Ministers is elected now, by appointment from the member nations.

>>16377
Theoretically, yes, but it hardly works and there too many bodies. Only the Council of Ministers can propose legislation, and it is also tasked with discharging that same legislation. In a trade bloc, this is fine, as the Council acts as the representatives of the trading nations, but in a political bloc it is dangerous. The Parliament - which just now can only vote against legislation and delaying for a while, thus acting more like a second chamber - should be the arena in which legislation is proposed, leaving executive functions to the Council of Ministers (which is appropriate for this task, as it can liaise with their respective nations on how best to implement).
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No. 16388
>>16379
German names are really trendy among Ukrainian & Russian sluts. The girls are as cockhungry for the Westerners as they never were before and often use made-up German surnames on social networks. Look at how many Western Europeans/Americans aren't satisfied with migrants/blacks/latinos and how common are false flagging cuckold fantasies on imageboards, now imagine my frustration when I see it there. And, unlike these stories about girls and the blacks in the West, this is real and girls do prefer Westerners over Slavs.
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No. 16389
>>16382
Well, the Siebenb├╝rgensachsen have mostly returned to germany or have been deported in accordance with the Potsdam agreement.
Same goes for the Schwaben who used to inhabit the Banat area and Temeschvar.
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No. 16392
>>16388
If it makes you feel any better I would only want Slavs Jews and the Irish pls gibe Yulia Slavoshenko :-DDD
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No. 16393
>>16379
I have a German surname myself. I don't know about Romania but here German settlement and their later integration was so widespread that nobody bats and eye on them.
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No. 17553
>>16233
>the future of the European Union

I think the more precise question would be what's the future of the European Integration Process because as far as I see the EU, it is a still ongoing process of states giving their sovereignty to a supra-national organization, eventually (perhaps?) dissolving into something similar like the USSR/USA? From a neo-functualist point od view that would be inevitable due to the nature of the integration process so far and while neo-functiolism has been criticized as based in little to no empirical evidence outside the EU cotext, it seems to have a valid point in the fact that indeed, most of the bureaucratic structures and European law implementations will only work if you continue to integrate. One might naturally ask here whether or not that is a wishful outcome. Well, that's left to the national member states still and I see a drawback here, mostly because the willingness to integrate decreases steadily. Maybe because the narrative of a peacekeeping organization in post-World War 20th century doesn't work anymore, maybe because the EU has constantly be blamed by national governments or abused for unpopular law passing or - and that's what convinces me the most at the moment - the EU has literally no identification momentum, as national states do because seriously - how many people in Europe would identify themselves as European when it's not meant in a context of what is not European?
Anywho, I find the concept of that 'Europe of different speeds as they call it quite convincing and realistic given the status quo. I don't see a future for small national states to deal with global problems such as international terrorism, climate change and you name it. Respecting the principle of subsidiarity, a (politically) strong EU might be one solution to deal with this issues in near future but it sure has to redefine itself and also communicate itself better to the European citizens because as for now, it's an Elite project giving advantages mostly to other Elites (i.e. free travel, Erasmus etc. hardly concerns a fracture of the population)
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No. 17608
>>17553
I can say that I identify more with the EU than with the German government. And I identify more with Europe than with Germany.

Just wanting to let you know this exists.
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No. 17609 Kontra
2,3 MB, 200 × 150, 0:05
>Help me leave KC..

>go to ernstchan
>open up politics thread

ach, bernd...