/int/ – No shittings during wörktime
„There is no place like home“

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No. 25420
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Let's discuss non-electronic gaming. Would prefer it not just bog down in chess and go with nothing else, but we'll see. I know we had at least one German here who played the Dark Eye.

Useful links:

Decent place to pick up .pdf files legally. Also some print on demand. Surprisingly, it's also pretty easy to sift out the average to bad stuff that exists on it.


Great resource. Doesn't have everything, but has most relevant things with some notable exceptions, like GURPS 4e. Mostly exists because those that actually have the power to enforce C&Ds recognise the usefulness of having the first sample free, and the rest either don't care or are out of business or the files are out of date editions .

Some discussion starters:

>What are you playing?
Recently finished a Schlieffen Plan scenario in The Guns of August as the German Empire which I lost. Had the game continued I think I could have salvaged it but such is life with short scenarios, they're all or nothing. Next time I think I will add a couple of the optional rules to enforce a historical opening, such as forced French attacking in the first few turns to represent their offensive doctrine. Without it, you just get the Somme from day one which is vastly in the favour of the Entente.

>What are you running?
Only one game at the moment, which is a pretty nice indie game I got off drivethrurpg called Dark Stars. Percentile cyberpunk in space with splashes of space opera. Rules aren't really written for a newcomer but it's all there. Just tends to be sparse and use a bit of assumed knowledge. I'm basically ripping off the metaplot of Far Cry 2, but nobody has picked up on it yet :-DDD

>What are you working on?
A few projects, most of which are currently on hold because I'm creatively bankrupt right now. Mostly in the process of reading more rulesets in my quest to put together my 16-18th Century Kazakh Khanate system together. I've been working in the opposite direction to how I have been previously and making a little progress. Been delving into the OSR more, and while I don't think I'm going to go the OGL route for various reasons, I am finding that taking a step back and stripping down a system to its core is yielding better results than trying to simulate a lot of different modules individually while keeping them feeling meshed. Though I am considering looking through Pendragon again and trying to convert their system into maintaining one's camp instead of holding.
No. 25452
Sadly I have no IRL friends who are interested in this sort of thing. I'd like to try it though.
No. 25454
Run it and they will come. It's gotten to the point where a decent GM can charge money for the service. It sounds dumb but it's the truth. Everyone wants to do shit like le epic stories they read, but very few want to sit down and actually make the thing happen for the players.
No. 25456
Same. Well actually I have no IRL friends either at this point partly because I deliberately cut everyone off from my life, every single one of my good friends. I just can't or won't be around drunks and substance users which was just about everyone.

At this point I'm wondering where I can find people. AA is a no because just about everybody there is in their 50s at youngest or an old geezer. I've thought about getting into bowling or finding a tabletop gaming group in my area which is also just annoying because I don't know anyone and while I have no problem with making an introduction there's my nagging distrust and paranoia of everyone particularly ones I don't already know and I don't plan on being involved with the area for more than a couple years which is exactly how long I need to know someone before I can start to trust them. But then again, it's not necessary for a gaming group.

Maybe I could try to find a curling rink around here too.

The problem is everybody drinks. At least a like vidya or CCG/tabletop focused store should have people who don't drink.
No. 25457
Well I could actually do that. I think the main thing for being a GM honestly is having the social intelligence and enough charisma to understand and read people so they don't get butthurt at you. Depending on the game players can get super butthurt, offended, and downright hurt by a bad GM and decisions made in a game, as well as other players so your unofficial job is also to basically referee people sifting against bullying.
No. 25459
In Russia we have specialized clubs for tabletop warhammer stuff, DnD, WoD, etc.
Check those out if you have dem.
No. 25460
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I can't remember what they're called but there are actually organised events for 5e and Pathfinder. I don't play them though. Most stores will have a designated RPG night too. Usually they'll have an open table or two which are essentially made to get newcomers into the fold and finding a more permanent group.

Tbh, as a literal autist I find that the rules enable me to work without a great deal of social intelligence. The fact that you have a basic level of common understanding to frame any arising conversation on means that you aren't missing out on so many cues, and if they start getting unruly, you have rules to fall back on to shut them up.

As for players, they are utterly expendable. It sounds harsh and while one shouldn't treat players badly because we're all trying to have a good time, a player who is a nuisance and gets unreasonably butthurt is a player you stop inviting, and if you really need the extra person there are far more wannabe players than there are games with open spots in the world. You can afford to lose them. My tip for rulings is simple, if I can't remember and it'll take too long to look up I just ask odd or even and then roll. If they get it right give them the positive outcome, else the negative. Say that you'll check the ruling at the end of the session if people are still worried about it. Chances are that they'll forget unless it's particularly important. Same goes if they start arguing about rules. Invoke rule zero, the GM is always right, and if they aren't being wankers about it, say that you'll go over the ruling at the end, and that you're making a call for the sake of keeping the game moving. At the end of the day, a GM is there to have fun too, and if he isn't, then why is he bothering? If your group makes the game a chore, then it's the wrong group of people or the wrong kind of game for that group. If serious shit doesn't work, then play Rocket Age. There is absolutely nothing wrong with unleashing every ounce of dork in you.

Social skills are really not that big a deal. I don't do funny voices or anything like that neither. It's definitely a skill that takes time to learn but you'll overcome a lot of the mistakes pretty quickly. If you're really worried then https://theangrygm.com/how-to-fing-gm/ is a good place to look. The persona can be grating but he's got a lot of good advice. I'd also recommend a printed adventure for your first game, they take a lot of the work off of your shoulders by giving you an almost CYOA approach where you get to inject your own flavour into the gaps. Keep on the Borderlands is a classic starter adventure for good reason, and isn't really hard (trivial really) to play in something like The Black Hack. That would be very simple for a new GM and very effective for their players. My 2c anyway.
No. 25461
In Australia it's a mix. You have groups of people who play games together, stores which are communities in themselves and different games and/or events will have different communities, and then there are clubs which tend to have a greater variance of events and more social activity alongside the game. There's a big board game one here in Brisbane where they even have pub crawls and shit for example.

Are the clubs quite insular? Or is it more like the store level play I talked about where they are just groups that play together regularly without necessarily being close friends?
No. 25464
I used to follow a twitter account that posted a bunch of cool pen and ink D&D art from the 80s but I can't find it now.

Oh well. Time to get ergot poisoning and listen to more dungeon synth.
No. 25473 Kontra
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Here are some of the tabletop RPG illustrators I like btw: Peter Mullen and Erol Otus
No. 25481
I have never played tabletop rpgs, although I have always been interested.
I do have have friends that play them, but they are in the middle of a shadowrun campaign.
How do long does such a campaign last? I would like to join them but I don't want to seem intrusive, so I'd like to wait for them to finish their campaign.
Also, are tabletop rpgs difficult to learn (specifically shadowrun)?
No. 25486
Depends on the campaign. A campaign is optional even. A lot of people just run single adventures, or even one shots. The biggest thing to consider when joining a campaign is player count rather than timing tbh. I always put 5 as my upper limit. Once you get above that it starts to get crowded.

RPGs aren't hard to learn. Shadowrun is one of the exceptions though because 5e is bloated garbage that isn't even laid out in such a way that makes it easy to read well. Especially hacking, fuck that noise.

If you want to play that kind of game, then tempt them with Cyberpunk Red which had a beginner rule set come out the other day. There are pdfs floating around already. It's the sequel to Cyberpunk 2020 and aims to tie some of the odd things about 2077 to the original game. Heard good things but haven't gotten around to reading through it yet. As basic rules, they also shouldn't have the full complexity of the game.

There is also Modern AGE which is probably simple to learn and would let you do a similar cyberpunk+magic game because generic system. I say probably because I've played other games using the same system but haven't yet read the modern version. The others are essentially skilless and you are trying to roll over a target number on 3d6+Attribute and then adding an extra 2 if you have an applicable attribute focus which are essentially perks you can choose when you level up.
No. 25500
There's also Paranoia which might be a great way to break in some players who might otherwise not be used to having to roll up their characters and getting butthurt about it.

>how long
You'd really have to listen to Australia here but in general it also depends largely on the group of people and how often or long they meet. For some people any kind of sit down PnP campaign on virtually anything can last a really long time, especially if they like only sit down Saturdays for a few hours and have something epic in the works.

>Also, are tabletop rpgs difficult to learn (specifically shadowrun)?
Not really in all honesty. If you've ever actually played a crpg or any of the earlier RPGs then you've already got a pretty good amount of familiarity with the systems and how it works, particularly if it's turn based. It pretty much just works as a computer game does except that it's often way more involved with stats and decided how each action lands or fails. Like if you've ever seen a fast paced computer rpg like say Warcraft even or anything that has a chance to resist an effect, or hell even played XCOM, then think about all the zillions of little actions, attacks, and effects. Now imagine having to have a group of people rolling for each and every single little thing and having them all do math. Someone decided to bumrush the goblin? Roll for iniative. Goblin is secretly a warlock disguised as a goblin? Roll for something like wits+perception against his glamour skill. Success! But uh oh! Now he's rolling a spell to make you go berzerk on your allies! Roll for willpower save. Stuff like that.

It's actually pretty fun but in a way I'm not sure I can make anyone understand with just words. Pretty much all PnPs are dice based which mostly is what determines the RNG of succeeding or failing at certain tasks, which includes the chance of landing a crit. Virtually all modern vidya games are based on DnD's system which is from the 70s, and if I'm not mistaken DnD was the grandfather of all the other systems many of which eventually got turned into vidya decades later.
No. 25510
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We Germans have some fast share platform without any nasty pop-ups, captchas, coinmining, redirect-suff.


You an post requests what specific documents you are in demand in, and then s.o. will look, if she/he has it.

We has also a lot of English stuff.
I posted one examples.
Maybe you like to participate.
We are open for all nationalities and languages. :3
No. 25511
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> It's gotten to the point where a decent GM can charge money for the service. It sounds dumb but it's the truth.

I don't think that it sounds dumb, in my eyes it completely understandable.

To master a game is so much work, it was almost easier and less work the get a bachelor at a German university than mastering all the rules of DSA 4.1., so if you find a good gamemaster, pay him.
No. 25513
Paranoia is not a game I'd introduce people to as their first game. Putting aside my personal dislike for it, the main 'fun factor' it has is that it makes fun of RPG mechanics. Kind of like subversive media but for rules instead of tropes. Plus it can cement bad playing habits if it's the formative system since most games are more team oriented.

Tbh, Fiasco is Paranoia played 'straight' in that it uses actual rules but encourages things to go sideways without encouraging players to be chaotic stupid.
No. 25515
I can see why it exists, but it's just such a bizarre change in the scene since the rise of virtual tabletops where it's really taking off.
No. 25629
Does a GM really need to have mastered it though? I always thought of a good GM as more a guide who's intimately familiar with the game than somebody who can go rules lawyering better than anybody else.
No. 25640
Systems mastery is a pretty important trait for a good GM. It isn't about rules lawyering, but about having the working knowledge to know how to break the rules without breaking the game. Not all hacks and houserules are created equal, and the difference is usually the degree of system mastery that the creator had.
No. 25641
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Depends on the system. In not so sophisticated systems the gamemaster doesn't need to master all the rules and the settings' characteristics 100%ly.

In complex systems like DSA 4.1. is very important that the gamemaster does.
He needs it for playing the NPCs and making actions with them.
Fighting and applying magic can get very complex in DSA 4.1., if you use all the rules and possibilities.

He also needs it reacting to player actions. Players tend to invoke for their character 'special' possibilities and options, which they have allegedly read on page 276 of WgZ in connection with the specials rule of Aventurischer Bote 183 and page 187ff of HaM.
In order to react properly to this the gamemaster needs to know the rules, if he doesn't want to stumble reacting to them.
No. 25660
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So I've restarted work on my Kazakh Khanate RPG. I'm taking inspiration from a few very different sources based on rules that I've been reading lately. The first is that I'm going to use a two-stage statblock which has attributes that combine into derived attributes that essentially act as modifiers to various kinds of roll. I'm going to experiment with no skills, and build depth in other ways. I like the simplicity of it, and will be testing it with a few different dice systems to see what feels nice.

Second idea in the current build is to do with progression. You may remember me discussing feat-based progression in the past. Well, I have recently come across an XP-less system that still tracks progress in a less arbitrary way than just fiat. Essentially you have 5 boxes to tick by doing things that contribute to your legend. Then once you fill in all 5 you cash them in for a trait. The interesting thing here is that it allows for sideways progression, and the actions of the player form a kind of tapestry which can be seen in the character sheet quite obviously. As an example, a character might get disfigured due to so many battles where they emerged barely alive at the end. It might not even do much for them beyond make them recognisable, for better or for worse.

What tying progression to feats also does is reinforce the focus on the heroic. The game is not intended to be medieval Kazakhstan simulator 20XX, but trying to feel closer to the tales of great heroes of the era. Since that's our goal, then the feat system elegantly pushes players towards making character defining choices if they want to get better, which behind the scenes makes it easier for a GM to move a game forward, and easier for players to really identify with a character as they start to naturally change over time instead of having to figure it out largely themselves.

With that aspect, I'm really going to be testing different methods of trait gaining. Tweaking numbers required, figuring out guidelines for how much a feat may be worth (big ones may be worth 2 slots instead of 1, but what classifies as a big one?). And also the traits themselves. My first thought is to have a record sheet where one makes note of what each feat was, and then works with the GM to create a trait that fits in with what they've done. Other options are making tables to roll on, which has the problem of maybe making some strange things happen that don't fit the character's feats, or a list of traits that one picks from according to what fits best. Finally, I need to work out how to deal with immediately binding traits. Do I abstract things like horrific wounds and lost limbs and have them appear at the end of the batch of feats? Or do I make some system that allows the GM to impose a trait that still feels fair and isn't too lacking in direction?

Once I finish those two aspects I can really start digging down into how I want to handle the camp. It might seem like a frivolous addition, but the role of one's home, clan and even tribe is massive in Turkic epics and is often the catalyst of heroism, and its absence is almost damnation. The Mankurt for example is described as a slave who has forgotten his own kin, and without clan and tribe, they become subhuman and little more than beasts. So having some ties back to the home camp at the very least is vital to capture the feel that I'm going for. I am right now thinking on how I want it to integrate into my gameplay cycle since where it sits there will determine what kinds of rules it will need.

I will keep Ernst updated in my newfound burst of motivation. Please rate and subscribe.
No. 25668 Kontra
I think I will try checking out my uni’s tabletop club. My reasoning:

  1. I want to play DnD
  2. No friends
No. 25670
I find this interesting. Most countries appears to have at least one major domestic pen and paper rpg that nobody outside know about.
No. 25673
Is yours KULT or something else?
No. 25676
We have a few. Most known today would maybe be Mutant because of Road to Eden, it has a spinoff called Mutant Chronicles that was know i think. Kult is one, then we have Eon, fantasy role playing game that is pretty big materials wise. I think we have one based in the wild west or something, can't remember if it is domestic or not.
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Why not making a p&p-game with an Australian background?
I guess this would have a higher chance for being played by other and being successful.

Yes. It is quite interesting. Of the biggest German p&p you could have heard, as they were some also internationally quite successful computer games, which used the setting and some of rules of this particular p&p game.

btw: What are the big autochtonous p&ps of Sweden and Australia?

I adore the art of DSA. The style and the drawing techniques have changed a lot during the course of the last decades, as also the artist have changed. But this is, what like, because some of the rather famous DSA-artist have their own very characteristic style.

Like Uğurcan Yüce or Michaela Sommer alias Caryad.
No. 25681 Kontra
>Australian background

Do you mean like indigenous Australian or Mad Max?

Sage for brief posting
No. 25683
Because I don't think it's as interesting as the 16th-18th centuries on the Kazakhstan. If I were doing an Australian game, I'd reskin a wild west game into one about bushrangers. Indigenous stuff I don't know enough about, and their Dreamtime mythology tends to be more primal and not involve humans. Modern Australia is just really vanilla beyond the occasional snake. There's not much to work with there due to being such a young country (Federated and became a country in 1901). There already exist perfectly good games for post-apocalyptic Australia too, on both ends of the simulationist-freeform spectrum.

I'm not really after a great success with this project. It's mostly just something to do. I like playing around with game design, been doing so for years now on various aborted projects.

And tbh, I don't think that there is a local-only game here. The biggest ones are just 5e and Pathfinder.
No. 25698
Why don't you try and get kickstarter funding? I mean unless it's just your own personal hobby and you don't care about ever releasing it but then again why make a game for nobody else to pla
Oh right. Nvm I just realized I probably do assburgerish things like that too and can completely see the point of making a game system for no other reason than the joy to make it without the baleful interference of others and their petty seeming concerns about deadlines.
No. 25726
There's also just how little I've managed to pin down so far. I've been working on it for maybe a year, and most of that has been research and figuring out what doesn't work. I've not really made progress into the meat of the system yet because I haven't found something that I like yet beyond broad stroke design goals. Part one of game design is to think of a gameplay cycle and how levers are pulled to create outcomes, this is an in-depth analysis too, and video game documents will include control schemes and GUI elements before a single line of code has been written. They can change but you do need a very good idea of what needs to happen so you can make it happen. I'm not yet at that point. I have loose mechanics somewhat fleshed out here and there but nothing is connected yet.

For example, I have a mechanic mostly just waiting on numbers called Grit. It acts as a way to differentiate the heroic from the average in combat, since a round represents a small bout of combat instead of single strikes. It's a derived stat that will be based on Endurance and Fortitude, a combination of both physical and mental hardiness. What it does is act as a health threshold where above grit, a character or NPC takes half damage rounded up, but once it goes below it, then they start to get physically and mentally exhausted as the fight goes on and their wounds add up. This gives you the ability to start really laying into them and dealing full damage. So a heroic figure with higher grit can basically tank more damage for longer than the average person whose strength fails long before them, while the hero can still be brought down by lesser individuals through attrition. This is separate from armour which will affect damage before it interacts with HP, so a well armoured individual will take less damage and thus reach the Grit threshold later still. Armour is WIP though.
No. 25728
It sounds like your biggest problem is going to be making sure the mechanic doesnt become irretrievably broken. It makes me think of Fallout 1 and how by the time you get even combat armor you can waste entire locations at a time. The real trouble is getting it to scale appropriately, plus any RPer ever is going to see that and immediately think they can abuse the fuck out of it especially by minmaxing
No. 25729
Which is why I'm waiting on numbers. Minmaxing is a non-issue in paper gaming though. If an encounter is too easy, then I can ramp it up with minimal effort, and the Stormwind Fallacy exists too. HP levels are also not going to be super high anyway so you might get 3 or so extra hits before you die at most (a turn is maybe 30 seconds to a minute of fighting) and healing isn't as easy as popping a health pot or using a spell. I'll probably tie healing into Grit as well, maybe sub-threshold damage heals faster than over-threshold damage, I dunno yet.

It is also going to affect NPCs which makes a little more bookkeeping in combat but not all that much. So while little guys might wear down fairly easily, having to fight accomplished warriors like you will be a lot of the time means that you'll be trying to outlast an enemy who can tough out as much damage as you can, both trying to tip the other over the edge into exhaustion. Even worse if you're outnumbered.

Also, with feat-based progression designed to evoke the idea of legend building, it's pretty easy to justify cutting off feats for fights that were completely lopsided without any work going into it (like ambushing or something). The GM is a powerful game mechanic that people are too afraid of because of what amounts to memes about tyrant GMs. So essentially you have the ability to tweak encounters to be challenging as well as a valve you can close to create a push factor towards heroic deeds over slaughtering mooks.
No. 25764
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Alright, some time opened up in my schedule to run a game. Been meaning to try Astral for a while because Roll20 has had some issues for a while. Not so much software, just management decisions that I disagree with. I'll look into setting up a game. Probably Operation Whitebox because WWII is kino.

So far it seems pretty good. Some nice features for the free version too. It might not be as well-connected as Roll20 is with industry partners but I can see that changing because of their connection with DTRPG. My main gripe is that it's still clunky to make maps for, but that's a virtual tabletop thing rather than a strike against this system specifically.

Expressions of interest are open, but I'm not committing to anything yet. Just feeling out interest. No experience necessary. Only real requirement is that you go in open minded because OWB is OSR and I like it that way. It's lightweight and plays fast. The only thing I do is track ammo because it opens up some neat tactics regarding movement that the base rules don't cover. If not having a billion different types of dice roll bothers you, then it's a deal breaker. If theatre of the mind combat is a problem, then it's a deal breaker. I'm not super used to VTTs and I intend to keep it simple. Plus I don't really want to buy the supplement for tactical combat right now.

If you really want a specific kind of WWII experience, feel free to note it. I may take it into consideration even. Currently leaning towards either airborne in Overlord or Operation Tonga but I'm flexible.

If I ever get to that stage, I'll probably also use Astral for playtesting Batyr.
No. 25819
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Nice thread!

>>What are you playing?

I am playing Shadowrun and TDE / DSA 4.1

>what are you running

currently i am also the GM for a group of newbies in Shadowrun

>what are you working on

planning on getting those newbies to be fit enough to each GM a scenario/adventure of their own.

Try asking around gaming stores or math/science departments at unis for players for a group

The Shadowrun rules can get quite excessive, but the baseline is piss-ease: Pool of D6 comrpomised of the sum of specific Skill + related attribute + Modifiers vs either a fixed threshold or an opposed test of somebody rolling a pool of his own. Rolled 5+6 are successes, if you roll more than half of your pool in 1s, you glitch

There is a character creation and organizing tool called Chummer5a, use it.

Joining an ongoing campaign can be easy or difficult, heavily depending on the campaign, it USUALLY shouldn't be much of an issue provided the player number doesn't get to excessicve.

Just ask them if you could join in.
Playing somthing like a Streetsam (mundane combat focused char with lots of Cyberwar) as a first char is a good idea because it keeps shit simple.

Also take a look at the Shaworun Returns Trilogy, they are a great entryway to the setting, albeit being set ~20 years in the past of the games current timeline.

Tfw used to be an absolute rules crack in 4.1 up until some years ago when i played G7 weekly.

FYI ROll20 got hacked and the account database including (hashed) passwords sold on le dorkweb. Idk if they salted their hashes, but just to be safe, change your password everywhere you also used it.
No. 25820
I do a biannual password change anyway. Thanks for the heads up though.

I have heard that Shadowrun 6e is in the pipeline. Have you heard anything about it?

t. curious choomba
No. 25822
a week or two ago the full 6e CRB was leaked (about a month or more before it should have hit the digital stores).
It managed to unite both 4e and 5e fans (who usually don't get along) in judging it to be quite bad.
Tries to oversimply a lot of stuff but fails quite hard with several core pieces, the new Edge mechanic being the most crucial one.
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They have quite a lot novels there.
No. 25861
Well shit. I mean, the biggest issue was making decking less obnoxious (something that cyberpunk games in general have a criminal history in). Cyberpunk Red did a pretty good job all things said. I'll probably pick up the full game when it drops based on the basic rules that have been released. They're a considerable upgrade over the old ones in my opinion, even though I prefer some aspects of the 2020 setting over 2045 (which itself tbh is way more interesting than what's been shown of 2077).

Noice. Always good to have more troves. Somtimes they have things that others don't.