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No. 35878
18 kB, 389 × 413
The rationale behind the submachine gun was that the gentler recoil of a pistol cartridge allows one to fire full auto while still hitting the target. Pre-ban fully automatic firearms are prohibitively expensive for civilian ownership in the USA, but currently "binary triggers" that fire twice per trigger pull (once on pull, once on release) are available, which makes SMG-like weapons again a viable choice for civilian ownership. However in recent decades the proliferation of cheap and light body armor has led to SMGs falling out of favor with law enforcement and military users with short-barreled rifles becoming increasingly popular. Do imitation SMGs have any place in the current-day USA or elsewhere for that matter?
No. 35879
Depends really. For a routine police patrol, or anything short of actual military, I can see them remaining valid weapons, just not really viable on the front lines anymore. The generic body armour for an infantryman nowadays is Type III which should give you decent protection. Type III-A would be the minimum I'd say for resisting an SMG, and I wouldn't count on it holding up well to a burst, let alone more. III-A is intended for handguns, not sustained fire weapons.
No. 35880 Kontra
By which I mean against the average police patrol. I'm about the last person to want bill to pack automatic heat on his lunchtime stroll. That said, what coppers wear is about as much as a private citizen is likely to be using on the day-to-day. III-A is the maximum of concealable armour right now and it's not exactly a discreet item in spite of that and isn't really comfortable neither if it's hot and needing to be worn for a long time. I think that for a private citizen looking for cheap body armour, Type I (most rimfire rounds) or Type II (low velocity handgun calibres) is most likely to be the protection you're facing just for ergonomic reasons. A high velocity SMG is going to work fine there.
No. 35881
I don't think anyone even manufactures NIJ Type I armor anymore.
No. 35882
Maybe not, but I'd say there's still a lot of it floating around the secondary market. I mean, you can still buy an unopened crate of WWII vintage rifles for relative peanuts, I imagine that mass-produced armour either commercial or ex-police is likewise in abundance. If someone wanted dirt cheap body armour, then Type I is going to be better than nothing and cost virtually nothing. If we are talking about sound investment in protection, then yeah Type II minimum, maybe Type III-A depending on your local area, but at the end of the day, these are low-intensity protection not intended for a tactical situation (where Type III is now standard).

So it makes sense that the SMG is falling out of favour in that range of applications, but I still think it has a niche that can't be filled with an SBR. Outside of the hypothetical future as a full retard home defense solution, the SMG has transitioned into the PDW which takes the small profile and good handling of an SMG (down to 6mm or so) but has it designed as a downsized rifle cartridge for better ballistic performance that one generally associates with an SBR/Carbine. The obvious issue is stoppan powah, but tbh death by 1 full size round is the same level of dead as 2 smaller ones, so a high cycle-rate PDW does the job fine.
No. 35883
>Do imitation SMGs have any place in the current-day USA or elsewhere for that matter?
I'm not sure for what purpose. The sole use of them actually is entirely due to the same issue with body armor and having those smaller joule cartridges because you just can't fire something like an AR variant in a residential area. Well I mean as a cop you certainly "can" but everyone knows American cops just don't give any shit about hosing down civilian buildings with gunfire and winging 7 year old girls in the neck in the process.

I fail to see what solid military or self defense applications there are for such a weapon though because in CQB a full auto weapon isn't that great, I mean the only thing that it's really useful for is firing at night or in low light conditions just because you're going to hit something and with those smaller cartridges you're not going to get the same range and wall penetration when you miss, for whatever can be said about firing a fully automatic weapon in the dark in a residential area. But really though if you actually are going to go that route then why not just use a full auto pistol with extended mags?
No. 35887
>But really though if you actually are going to go that route then why not just use a full auto pistol with extended mags?

In effect that's an SMG. Modern pistol handling doctrine is to always use two hands to fire a pistol, at which point an automatic pistol is just an SMG that is lighter but more awkward to grip.
No. 35932
I really don't think you need an SMG tbqh. It would've been great for trench clearing but even a lighter assault rifle variant is going to be more useful and frankly you're not ever going to need it for home defense, nor is it going to be particularly useful for muh 1776 stop making the frogs gay revolution because you're never going to penetrate body armor that just about everybody you're going to be shooting is wearing. There's plenty of good European designs for a compromise with long arms like the Steyr AUG variants, some Heckler and Koch firearms, and various other designs particularly bullpups. Of course you really never need a full auto firearm for home defense regardless.

To answer OP's question it's mainly a tactical assault weapon imho and it really isn't a great one other. You're mainly going to use it for suppressing the enemy while advancing on his position in CQB or urban settings.
No. 36135
No. 36260
Of course. SMGs can be smaller and lighter due to their relatively low power loads. Also they can be sufficient to incapacitate hostiles in low to medium distances as body armor typically only covers the torso or a small part of it.

They still have a use but it's more niche than it was back in the day.
Full Auto control is not an argument anymore, as tricked-out ARs have almost no recoil at all.
No. 36263
SMGs is weapons of pre-automatic rifles era. Already to ww2 idea was maximum simplified with stamped metal and it was clear that basic concept of blowback automatic weapon is kind of obsolete.
Tbh a lot of modern submachine guns may be just rifles for pistol caliber or something like that. MP5 is delayed blowblack same as her more big cousins.
No. 36286
The rule of thumb I'm familiar with is that type IIa body armor will protect against 9mm training ammunition while type II body armor will also protect against more expensive 9mm ammunition marketed for self defense. If I were only worried about being shot by street criminals I would probably be fine with 2a. Type 2 seems practical in general. Type 3a adds protection against much less commonly used pistols while still being defeatable by pistol ammunition specifically designed to pierce armor, such as the 5.7x28mm of the Five-seveN or the extremely light and fast Liberty Civil Defense 9mm +P. It seems to me like the segment carrying handguns that would defeat type 2 armor but wouldn't also defeat type 3a armor is rather thin.
No. 36287
That's why I qualified it with depending on your area. .44 is getting obsolete but is still a popular round, and especially with the Magnum variant, you're not going to be getting the protection you want from Type II. There's an argument to be had about whether it really should still be a common round (.357 Magnum has far better ballistics imo) but if your area is brimming with big bore handgun ammo, then you'll want to dip into the more expensive protection.
No. 36288
Oh and also, Type II is easier to work around. III-A is concealable but it's still a heavier, less breathable piece of protection, and ergonomics is a commonly underappreciated soft factor in the effectiveness of equipment (and is one of the reasons that the intermediate cardridge exists despite being worse on paper than their predecessors).
No. 37052
As an experiment I went outside today and yesterday wearing covert type IIIa body armor. The armor was too stiff for me to bend my torso which inconvenienced me by forcing good posture while eating but otherwise was not a problem. The weight was negligible. The main source of discomfort was heat. Approximately once every two hours I went by myself into a washroom and stripped down to my undershirt and flapped it to let the sweat on the shirt and on my torso evaporate naturally. I found doing this kept my temperature from becoming distractingly uncomfortable.
No. 37054
You the Florida Ernst I take it? My research turned up that it was mostly bad in hot and humid areas. If you aren't in one of those then it's particularly interesting data. I guess that when they say heavy in books they mean a heavy material rather than having a large mass though. Thanks for testing.

I can't offer another perspective though. Body armour is Haram here. (How will the completely bent bill kill you if his bullets don't work?)
No. 37055
Not Florida, Washington State. It was cold enough today and yesterday that while I was outdoors overheating was not a consideration. Indoors I think my experience would be representative of anywhere in the world.
No. 37056
Yeah for sure. I imagine that it gets pretty brisk on the PNW so the heaters are on indoors :-DD
t. subtropical Ernst with mid-20s Celsius winters
No. 37123 Kontra
I tried wearing the vest for another two days. I found that if I wore a short sleeved shirt under it with bare arms I did not ever need to remove the vest to maintain my temperature indoors. This result might have been different in a more humid climate. My shirt was slightly damp at the end of the day but not soaked.
No. 37499
79 kB, 800 × 800
I've since purchased an overt vest that combines type IIIA bullet protection and level 1 spike resistance and some unspecified level of slash resistance. Spike resistant cloth armor isn't great. It might catch a knife thrust of such-and-such force and prevent it from penetrating too far, but once the tip is stuck in the attacker can bear down and slowly push it through the rest of the way unless you stop him. The photo might not convey this but in person visually the vest is very obviously a piece of armor rather than regular clothing. Wearing it what struck me was how stiff it was. It might as well be a cuirass. Given the appearance so far I haven't been able to bring myself to wear it outside the house except while driving in the car.
No. 37502
That's not bad for knife protection. Like all protective gear up to and including CBRN protection, it's more intended to give you a chance to not die instead of providing true immunity to the thing it protects against.

You can definitely see the rigidity in it though. What's it like weight wise?
No. 37503
It is 7.4 pounds by my bathroom scale. I read up on what "level 1 spike protection" means and I thought it was interesting. The specification is in terms of various physical constants whose meaning in terms of everyday experience isn't immediately obvious, but what level 1 protection it is meant to approximate is "if an adult man of above-average strength (85th percentile) stabs the vest with an ice pick, it won't penetrate more than 7mm out the other side." Definitely far from immunity but enough to turn a very serious injury into a minor one.
No. 37921

I would advice to use cobers more wisely as well
No. 37934

Anyway, there is a bunch of PDWesque cartridges
No. 37993
The rationale was not really that gentler recoil would enable fully automatic fire, it was that the gentler recoil of a pistol cartridge would enable simple blowback/open bolt designs. We are now well past that and have low recoil rifle cartridges so a pistol cartridge is not really necessary for a short, light automatic weapon and the 5.56 can penetrate much more and do a lot more.

However, as an item for the civilian market it has some merit, you might not actually want the penetration in a home defence situation and hollow points can make up for the decreased lethality. But I don't know that a binary trigger would actually have much merit to it, it's not really enough that you could just spray at whatever threat was near and at the same time I would assume that it would have a negative impact on accuracy if you wanted to fire quick but aimed individual shots. A regular semi-automatic would probably be better.
No. 38012
I think a binary can help to fire at legs AND elevate the muzzle up into body faster
No. 38015
Oh crap, I actually not understood theme of thread because english, I mixed binary trigger with Progressive trigger, and wanted also to add that progressive triggers is kind of crap and select fire is better, but I readed this article and find out that this is kind of mechanicsm that allow semi-autos being kind of fake full autos https://www.pewpewtactical.com/franklin-armory-bsf-iii-binary-trigger/

Aren't for same reason in US banned a lot of semi auto convertions because it's "easy to convert them in full auto" so they should be registred as automatic weapon? And new created things like SP5 - semiauto MP5 created the way you can't just replace fire control group and make it MP5 again, and this things from OP directly penetrate ideas of this prohibit laws?
Buy bold action rifle :----DDDDD
t.other russian
No. 38612
I had not thought about this from the perspective of straight blowback vs more complicated mechanisms. What is the significance of a blowback design?