/int/ – No shittings during wörktime
„There is no place like home“

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Hail Odin! by Christenklatscher666


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No. 6267
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There is a thread asking about German grammar, but why not make a languages general?

Why aren't you learning a language in your free time? Go for it, it's a good use of time. In a couple of years, you'll have an interesting skill.

I'm currently learning Russian, it's a horrible language crafted by Satan himself. Cyrillic is bad, but cursive cyrillic is just sadistic, it is no wonder that so many people resisted attempts at Russification.


Here is a link if anyone wants to suffer alongside me with Russian.

C'mon Ernst, learn a language!
No. 6269 Kontra
So sorry you had to see this.
No. 6270
47 kB, 600 × 575
>this T
You write it like on english, small cursive T is more like "m"

>В Украине
На Украине
No. 6271
Notice how I got some right and others wrong.
t. tired and thus even dumber than usual
No. 6273
>learning a language
>not creating one
That is not peak autism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_Sidis#Vendergood_language

You have heard of esperanto, but what about Vendergood?
No. 6276
В/на украине is historical/political meme, ask me some day in historical thread, I will try to answer.

I like Klingon
No. 6278
I know this one :DDD Ukraine being borderlands
No. 6280
>learning russian
why the hell do you need it tho?

t. a russian living not in russia
No. 6286
Why russians can't reform their grammar? Modern Belarusian grammar was made in 20 century and it's just hear and write the same. Very simple and grammar rules only about correct pronounce. Meanwhile in Russia
While russian linguistics possesses some quite good traits, their grammar is a complete clusterfuck.
Also I think slavs don't get how powerful their word forming process is. We use boring words because of rules.
No. 6290
>and it's just hear and write the same
But it's not absolutely so, дз, ц, з, с aren't written with ь before soft consonants.
Also it had a rule forbidding ў in foreign words, but it's gone and irrelevant.
No. 6292
You mean orthography, because Russian and Belarusian grammar are practically the same? Russian language traditionally has a non-phonemic orthography, while Belarusian has a highly phonemic one, that's all there is to it. Reforming the language isn't really worth the effort. Also, just like Old English, Russian language probably was formerly spoken like it was written, but then the pronunciation changed, while the spelling stayed the same, and nobody bothered to update it.

>it had a rule forbidding ў in foreign words, but it's gone and irrelevant
It concerned any word where "у" alone created a whole syllable, if I'm not mistaken. I haven't heard that they dropped that rule, but if they did, then this is really fucking stupid, because "ў" corresponds to "w", so it's pretty much a consonant, and therefore cannot create a syllable and pronounced differently from regular "у".
No. 6293
>Галоўныя адрозненні ў правілах беларускай мовы 2008 года ад правіл 1957 года:
>Пашырэнне напісання «у нескладовага» («ў») на словы іншамоўнага паходжання (напрыклад «па ўніверсітэце» замест «па універсітэце», «гэта ўнікальная распрацоўка» замест «гэта унікальная распрацоўка»)
No. 6294
Yep, that's really fucking stupid: "па ўніверсітэце" would be "по вниверситету" and "гэта ўнікальная распрацоўка" would turn into "эта вникальная разработка", if it was in Russian. Either academics are imbeciles, or they simply succumbed to the whining of dumbass parents that their kids are having too much trouble learning Belarusian.
No. 6296
At first I wanted to argue, but then I remembered, that there are barely any native words in Belarusian which begin from У, they acquired prefix consonants В or (rarely) Г.
This way, "naturally" for Belarusian would be "па універсіцету вуніверсітэце" and "гэта вунікальная распрацоўка".
Yeah, it's really stupid. Never though of that.
No. 6297 Kontra
*Never thought
No. 6304
On the other hand, the same У/В alternation is present in Ukrainian and there's no problem with it. But they have the same restrictions, no alternation in foreign words.
Well, it could be worse, Taraszkiewica uses ў in names.
No. 6322
Russian is fairly easy for me to read but extremely slow to write/speak in. Every noun has like 30 different spellings and God knows how native speakers remember all the rules. And then loads of words don't even follow these rules anyway.

I mean, to type one moderately complex sentence I have to refer to an entire book of grammatical rules.
No. 6324
When you write, you are corrected in the school, but that's not an option for adults.
Read, speak, and you'll be remembering rules to the point so you use them automatically. There's no magic way in learning languages, the only difference between native speakers - you don't have 5 years of learning the language, when you can get help 24/7 from your parents.
No. 6325
Native speakers don't have to learn these rules, they follow them by an instinct.
No. 6326
Ebglish have 12 "times", useless articles that even most of them don't know why they needed, often specific order of wards and a lot nouns that not follow rules, much more than in russian tbh
No. 6332
Of course, it's coming to me gradually. But I do mean gradually.

I just can't imagine instinctively knowing 'okay, this preposition means the noun must be put into dative plural, which means the ending is changed to...' etc. Noun declension of course doesn't exist in English so it's odd to me.

Yes, the one thing I do like about Russian grammar is that word order is much more flexible than in English.
No. 6333
One question: Is it common for the average Russian to mess up declension? I see adult English speakers who still don't know how to use an apostrophe, so you'd think speakers of a more complex language would make more errors.
No. 6334
Articles are no more 'useless' than Russian cases. We manage to communicate just fine without those after all. They are often pretty relevant in general speech since you do often refer to a specific object rather than a general object.
No. 6336
It depends.
Some errors make into usual use and they don't feel like errors, see:
They used оплата за проезд, though correctly it's оплата проезда. And it's on the state site! Though, that's how the language changes.
Regular words surely won't make any questions in declension, but some rare - they do. One popular example is plural genitive of кочерга.
No. 6337
Interdasting. To me they sound interchangeable, though оплата за проезд sounds unnecessarily longer, or perhaps more formal?
No. 6338
>Articles are no more 'useless' than Russian cases
Absolute bullshit. Our cases is kinda what replace your "times". Your articles has no analogy in russian language at all.
this is an apple - это яблоко
this is the apple - это яблоко
No. 6339
оплата за проезд is mistake? what?

I bet it is same shit like difference between одеть and надеть or fact that there no word "ихний" in russia
No. 6341
It has nothing with formality, it's just a common error.
It's mentioned in dictionares as colloquial.
No. 6346
>оплата за проезд is mistake?
It's kinda like saying "Сколько времени?" instead of "Который час?". It is a mistake, but nobody really gives a shit about it.
No. 6347
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We used to have cases but we mostly got rid of them. Declension wasn't necessary for us. Also if you think articles are bad now, you need to study the languages from the time of the Heptarchy :-DDDD

We declined our articles :-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
No. 6356
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You dropped also very usefull words, like thy/thyself

>We used to have cases but we mostly got rid of them.
You have different form of construction, and you choosed to replaces cases with different instruments. And in my opinion, this construction style is inferior to russian. Russian language allow much more freedom to build sentences, even words but same time remain more or less clear language, unlike eastern languages that more look like language from Star Trek TNG episode "darmok".

Of cource russhian need a bunch of fixes and changes, but overall in my opinion it one of the best languages in the world, that give you maximum freedom of speech combined with moderate threshold of occurrence and more west, than east level of concretely

t. not language expert but still

>languages from the time of the Heptarchy
Like 100 years ago you still have memes like same time exist и and і (and no, it's not like in urkrainian when i=russian и and и=russian ы, we had и, i and ы same time :---DDDD), letter ъ and end of every word that ends on consonant letter that not soft, letter ѣ that was used in 128 roots, mostly where you have identical words that means different, and you need to remember all of them, letter Ѳ that was absoluetly same as Ф, but was used in words that come from greek language in ancient times thought ortodox church. Same goes with letter ѵ that was used in some words instead и or i

There also some differences in world endings and minor stuff. And hovever when two last letters was obviously useless 100% and ѵ died by itself almost even before revolution, other stuff pretty cool, like how it look and why not :---DDD
2nd pic is pre-revolution meme, if you can read it
No. 6360
We still have thy, it's just formal English. We have a lot of things left over from Old English but they're not correct grammar anymore. I know I'm not the only one to use either outdated or false yet understandable words like muchly or goodly, and tbh as a native speaker there is a crapload of freedom in how English can be spoken so long as you respect word order because of how the language functions on words rather than suffixes. It's not inferior, just different. If something was objectively the superior method of communication, then language would naturally evolve towards that rather than evolving as different families much like how most people eventually domesticated animals because it was such an obviously useful thing.

Also the Heptarchy is the 5th-10th centuries. It refers to the rule of the seven main Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms in England.

>we had и, i and ы
Kazakh still has those in the cyrillic alphabet. They also have ә and а, у, ү and ұ, қ and к, н and ң and finally г and ғ. Old English also had a few letters that aren't used anymore, ignoring the runic system. ⁊ Ƿ Þ Ð Æ.

I'm not opposed to going back to the old alphabet though tbh. Remove the Fr*nch influence
No. 6361
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Russian used to even have ebin numbers:

Portuguese had sames, a complicated writing system that required you to know if the word was originally greek or latin to know how it was spelled. It got removed once the government decided that people needed to be able to read the fugging language and make it easier to teach to yokels.
It looked ebin though.
No. 6364
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>It's not inferior, just different.
Well, I personaly feel much less freedom when talk on english, than on russian. Of cource, major part of it because I'am not a native speaker, but still. English better as technical language, and if used correctly, it may be much more clear in many specific things. There also some therms that russian language don't have. However, I can also say, that english have problems with writing, and much more than russian - so many words written not like they sound, many letters have multiple sounds depend on their position in word that creating mess and broke spelling of many foreign words, hell lot of letters often you need not read, they are there only to make correct positions for other letters that have multiple sounds and this often extra confusing and create abominations. Adittionaly, spoken english much less understandable that russhian. Russian have more deep and "solid" sounds which making understanding of what you hear much more easer, and spoken english often become absolute mess that very hard to understand.

>Russian used to even have ebin numbers:

Well, all this memes with numbers are from much more ancient times that what I said about, lol. I said about 2nd half of XIX centuary and early XX centuary, where language exept some stylistics and endings was almost same, and i and Ѣ can be re-implemented even tommorow if somebody need it since it only orthography.

Go back in time , in times of Peter I and even before, when church language was same as public one, and you will get much more wierd and unpolished things with namy more letters lol.
No. 6372
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A lot of it is that the relationship between pronunciation and orthography has changed dramatically too. I have personal guesses on some of the letter combinations but I don't know if they're actually correct, like I suspect the 'gh' thing used to be a lot harsher sounding like a ğ instead and they never changed it because it was so gradual.

It's probably a native speaker vs learned speaker thing. A lot like how Russian humour is not really able to be translated because it relies on a very intimate understanding of the language. Lots of the linguistic freedom in English comes from knowing a lot of its quirks like how and when you can bend the rules, and rarely used forms of words that are not actually incorrect, or even just words that are incorrect but are close enough to correct that they make sense. Some American dialects have double negatives for example, and thick Australian English is more than an accent. Even New Zealand has Southland English which has different pronunciation to the rest of the country and has some different common use words like almost exclusively using wee instead of little. What I like about English is that there are enough rules that make it always pretty easy to follow along on even when someone talks weird but enough leeway with the rules for things to get ebin.

Also, Old English looks ebun, but it was more chaotic than modern English because no cunt knew how to spell :-DDDD
Pic not related but take a look at Middle English for some real classics in native speakers writing like retards.
No. 6374
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I like that Portuguese and Russian have a similar basis for weeknames, the sign of a society controlled by religiousity: Pagan weekdays suplanted by church sanctioned days

Понедельник (week) - Monday (Day of the Moon) - Segunda-Feira (Second Day)
Вторник (Second) - Tuesday (Tiw's Day) - Terça-Feira (Third Day)
Среда (middle) - Wednesday (Woden's Day) - Quarta-feira (Fourth Day)
Четверг (Fourth) - Thursday (Thor's Day) - Quinta-Feira (Fifth day)
Пятница (Fifth) - Friday (Friga's Day) - Sexta-Feira (Sixth day)
Суббота (Sabbath) - Saturday (Saturn's Day) - Sábado (Sabbath)
Воскресение (Cross day) - Sunday (Sun day :DDD - Domingo (God's Day)
No. 6375
It's воскресенье.
Also, in old Russian, this day was called неделя (from не делать), hence, понедельник, "после недели". The week was called седмица.
No. 6377
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Fug. Confusion was had.
No. 6378
>Воскресение (Cross day)
Воскресенье as already was said
Воскресение means "Ressurection"
No. 6380
Wasn't voskresenye made from the same PIE root as increase?
No. 6381
Hmmm... you try to connect it to word крестьяне that created not from word "cross"?
No. 6432
ja ucze się języka polskiego bo interesóje mnie historia polski. hard as fuck but i got nothing else better to do
No. 6550
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Is English the only language to have two equal literature norms?
For me it sounds very strange, it's like there would be Russian Russian and Ukrainian Russian and they would be both taught.
No. 6555
Norwegian has Bokmål and Nynorsk. It's even more funny when you consider that the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes speak pretty much the same language. I'm sure if the Kalmar Union had never broken apart they'd be considered as dialects rather than languages.
No. 6568
There is already Ukrainian Russian. Ukrainian schools don't teach children to write "on the Ukraine" in Russian.
No. 6633
What resource can I use to read basic Russian sentences? I've considered children's books but I've no idea where to find them. Duolingo is far to repetitive in that regard, I'm almost at the end of the course yet it still gives me sentences like 'the cat is on the table' for practice.
No. 6634
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I'll give you some children books when be back at home.
I also recommend you to watch movies and cartoons russian with subtitles, also play games.
This is how I learned english lol.
No. 6635
Thanks fren
No. 6648
The link I posted in the OP has a chapter for basic sentences. Chapter 5 I believe.
No. 7131
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How would you talk to a stranger over Internet in not very formal situation?
English surely doesn't have this problem, it's universally "you". I wrote a letter without markers "du" or "Sie", but I've got the answer with "Sie" and I was a bit surprised to get such an answer.
No. 7200
Lel. Fresh out his twitter:
TSA agent (staring intently): I’m trying to figure out who you look like before checking your ID.
Me: ok
TSA: that cyclist Armstrong!
Nearby agent: that ain’t Lance Armstrong
Me: he’s right
TSA: oh you look like that skateboarder (checks ID). Same last name too! Crazy!
Me: crazy
No. 7206
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Well I wanted to learn ukranian, since during my voluntary job in there I really like it and odesa make me feel like combination living in homecountry and cool foreign country.
I have huge boner for history of ukraine because the place used to atleast semi habitet with khazars and other turkics and it's homeplace of kievan rus, so it'd to be cool to live in there. But realized regardless I'd do I'd regardes as something like bydlo sex tourist and the infamous "why are you in ukraine" question gets tedious. So I almost disregarded that. Still have special place for those people in my heart.

Right I want to learn german and swiss german now, my father knowns the both but I dont spend time with him too much. I've downloaded Michael Thomes audio and getting the basics.
No. 7216
Let's be friends and unlock the secrets of Eastern Europe together.
No. 7223
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befriends you
No. 7375

can kazakh bernd understand this?

I only understood the part "bizim bir kazak sözü var" and "gözü var" part.

first one means we have a kazakh proverb. couldnt understand the rest of the song even thought it sounded awfully familiar.
No. 7377
I dunno about the rest. I am flat out understanding spoken Kazakh, but the bit you quote is understandable but off. In Kazakh I think it't be "bizdiń Qazaqtyń sózińiz bar". Could be wrong though, self teaching out of a book is not the ideal for these things :-DDD
No. 7599
> While russian linguistics possesses some quite good traits, their grammar is a complete clusterfuck.
Russian pronunciation is also a complete mess, so it's better to stick with a more morphological spelling.
No. 7769
2,4 MB, 18 pages
Human infants develop language remarkably rapidly and without overt instruction. We argue that the distinctive ontogenesis of child language arises from the interplay of three factors: domain-specific principles of language (Universal Grammar), external experience, and properties of non-linguistic domains of cognition including general learning mechanisms and principles of efficient computation. We review developmental evidence that children make use of hierarchically composed structures ('Merge') from the earliest stages and at all levels of linguistic organization. At the same time, longitudinal trajectories of development show sensitivity to the quantity of specific patterns in the input, which suggests the use of probabilistic processes as well as inductive learning mechanisms that are suitable for the psychological constraints on language acquisition. By considering the place of language in human biology and evolution, we propose an approach that integrates principles from Universal Grammar and constraints from other domains of cognition. We outline some initial results of this approach as well as challenges for future research.
No. 13798
So i am currently learning some Russian and I am just at the very core of the basics, I've just passed learning the alphabet. I saw that some russian wrote that English is a clusterfuck when it comes to pronounciation and he claimed russian is supposed to be better.

I am here to disagree, russian is not pronounced as written at all, I have already encountered several exceptions already and there is this word that for some reason is driving me completely mad "скорого" the г isn't pronounced as a g anymore it is more like a very soft g sounding like a v, why is that?

Yeah, it is really funny that norwegians had some sort of identity crisis of them being danes that they created their own version of norwegian.

>It's even more funny when you consider that the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes speak pretty much the same language.

While I agree that the languages have many similarities I would not call it pretty much the same. Spoken norwegian is like 20% intelligible to me while written form where i have time to think it's like 60% intelligible to me.

I will tell you what language are basically the same languages. Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian. As a reference I will give you that as a Serbo-croatian speaker, slovenian is as intelligible to me as danish.
No. 13804
From mine point of wiew, it much better than english for example, espessialy if you not Колхозник. And in russia at least it what written - that how you read it 99% of time, unlike english of french.
No. 13805
> the г isn't pronounced as a g anymore it is more like a very soft g sounding like a v, why is that?
You may say "g" too, it be kinda jewish-south accent but nothing that terrible. Some letters sounds a little bit different trought pronounciation, it more case of vowels, but it just general talk and you will easely guess it by yourself when trying to pronounce concretic word yourself.
No. 14466
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I'm learning French, Korean, and Chinese.

French was almost by accident, as I was getting tired of the difficulty of memorizing Korean words, and wanted to see how easy French would be in comparison. Turns out, almost exactly 10x easier, and I go through 100 new French words each day compared to 10 Korean. I have 10 more days before finishing my 5000-word French Anki deck.

I'm using Duolingo to help cement basic vocab, and learn French and Korean grammar. I previously used it for Spanish, and it worked well in providing a basic foundation in the language. I highly recommend it as a low-effort way to get started in your language of choice.

Interesting things about each language if you consider learning them:
French: This will sound obvious to most, but at least 80% of the words you learn are identical or near-identical to English words. Grammar is really easy too. French really is a no-effort language to learn if you already speak English.

Korean: It's listed as one of the hardest languages to learn by all bodies that measure such things, but the alphabet and grammar are all very regular and easy to learn, although the grammar is alien and takes some time getting used to. The only problem is that there is almost no shared vocabulary with any language outside of East Asia.

Chinese: Chinese is the easiest major world language to learn, except for the shitty writing system. Chinese grammar is like English but without all the stupid details and irregularities. The pronunciation is easy if you ignore tone, which you more or less can if that's the one thing keeping you from learning the language. You can be understood without them, and most Chinese people will still praise your Mandarin because they have very low expectations of foreigners speaking it.
Of course, chinese moon runes are cancer, but you can accomplish a lot without being able to read them - and it will be easier to learn them if you already know a good deal of the spoken language. Chinese is actually, along with French, a great low-effort language to learn.

Russian spelling has two faults:
  1. g is pronounced v in -ego and -ogo endings.
  2. Stress isn't indicated except in learner texts.
If you know the stressed syllable, a Russian word's pronunciation is completely predictable from the writing.
Cyrillic is an aesthetically horrible writing system though.
No. 14467
Portuguese and Spanish both have Europoor and American norms. As is the case with English, the American form is better.

I don't think the Quebecois have enough cultural clout or confidence to establish a separate written standard from France, though.

China and Taiwanese Mandarin.

Arguably Malaysian and Indonesian but those are often considered separate languages.

North and South Korean.

Persian is codified separately in Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan. Tajik is especially different due to Soviet reforms.

Hindi and Urdu are the same language at lower levels, but use different alphabets, and the higher registers are based on different source languages (Hindi uses Sanskrit, Urdu uses Persian and Arabic).

It's actually a quite common phenomenon, and in almost every case the differences are greater than that between American and British English. Aside from spelling differences that don't reflect pronunciation differences, there are very few words in literary English that differ between America and Britain.

also minor quibble OP, but linguistics and language learning are not the same thing.
No. 14497
>linguni thread
Many yays were had.

I want to post but phoneposting a shit. I will elaborate on my experience when I am back home. KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE thankyou
No. 14520
With EC speed this thread will live next 1,5 months
No. 14534
My first encounter with languages as an adult, and being fascinated by them since I was a child, was back in 2010 when I was unemployed and searching for a job. I downloaded Rosetta Stone and tried to learn Russian. I had a great time but I was using it alone with nothing else. It was not enough so I used Google translate as a dictionary (yes I know that was a wrong move) and I went on until level...2? I think. I dropped it due lack of discipline.

then I tried to remove the rust off of my German language back in...2012? so I decided to use Duolingo alone. It was my first experience with this tool. It was not bad but I dropped it due to wörk.

Next, due to a certain circumstance back in 2015 I tried to read up on Mongolian. I found a website via Omniglot (I think?) that taught basic grammar and pronunciation, and seeing that I had some Cyrillic and German background (for the ö's and ü's in the language) and became really fascinated by it. When I finished the website I was able to form simple questions and I loved it, but then dropped due to lack of discipline. Then an Estonian on cabbageboard pls dont ban me gave me a book on the language. I started reading it and I found out that it needs way too much discipline for my time as this language is hard, and a book and that website are is certainly not enough. Also, Mongolian learning materials are really hard to come by on the internet, Omniglot's resources - most of them - are dead links and I do not know how would I continue studying if I ever decided to do so. Maybe there will be more resources or a Duolingo course on it in the future?

Moving on to 2017, I went to a psychiatrist to find out that I suffer from anxiety and depression, and I was making progress with the doctor, I decided to dig an old fascination and use it as a form of therapy - I tried to learn Greek. And this time I was very lucky as the resources on Greek are fairly abundant (compared to Mongolian lol), so I downloaded and printed an entire book (that also had audio samples), used Rosetta Stone, a web dictionary for translation, some youtube videos dedicated for the language (and not those idiots on webcams saying WWWATSAPP GAYS clap TEDAY AM GANNA TEECH U SUM GREEK tihi~) and Google translate for pronunciation (I can certainly certify Google translate on that for Arabic, the pronunciation itself is absolutely correct but the nuances and tonality of the language are not 100% correct). I kind of have a background on Greek tonality because I used to listen to the Greek time slot on the local state radio back when I was a child because they used to broadcast Greek music and I really liked it, but I was also interested in how the language did sound from the announcer. After making some very good progress in studying the language (I was expressing my anxiety by spamming writing "I dont know any more. Help me" all over my work notebook and on white boards then erasing them). I dropped it as well due to wörk taking over and also lack of discipline.

Now one might ask me, why those languages? Why not learn something actually relevant like French or Spanish?
Because a. Strange languages fascinate me, b. I am an autist, c. Reasons.
No. 14536 Kontra
I always seem to forget that. I am still adjusting to EC's speed.
No. 14546
55 kB, 497 × 476
My anda.
By the will of the Eternal Blue Sky, have a free unlisted youtube video of a rare album of Mongolian music.
Do you still have the book the Estonian sent you? I want to study Mongolian but I'm poor and the only good book I can find is $60.

Also, if you're into autism-pleasing languages that are also useful, try Korean. It has alien grammar and phonology, but a low barrier to entry, lots of materials for learning, and a ton of media to consume even if you don't like k-drama and k-pop.
No. 14548
fug, forgot the link :-D

Another good autism language is Quechua, btw. Literally the perfect human language.
No. 14549
21,4 MB, 473 pages
saijna baijna uu?
ofcourse! See PDF attached.

I would also suggest going here first before diving into the book
watch the videos, understand them, then dive in.

for some reason, I am not feeling Korean at all. The only Asian languages that fascinated are Mongolian, Vietnamese and Chinese, and the latter two are assraep hard.

SAVED! I really love throat singing! In fact, I can throat sing a little bit! Thank you so much!
No. 14550
>Genghis Khan was not a Turk.
>biji kurdistan
No. 14551
Yeah I remember looking at briefly at that while I was digging through Aztec and Inca languages. Are there any resources for it?
No. 14553

Thanks mate!

Chinese is easy, just time consuming. The spoken language is one of the easiest in the world, it's just that the writing system doubles the amount of shit you need to memorize if you want to read. However, there are tools you can use to convert characters into pinyin, so theoretically any digital media could become readable relatively easily if you know the spoken language.

Vietnamese is just a bitch to pronounce, every other part of the language is easy.


>Are there any resources for it?
There's a few books on Amazon, but unless you speak Spanish it's hard to find good materials. The grammar is really nice and regular, so I think with sample texts, a dictionary, and some web pages as grammatical reference, it should be doable. But that's not an ideal situation, of course.
No. 14556

Thanks mate, saved!

Chinese is easy, just time consuming. The spoken language is one of the easiest in the world, it's just that the writing system doubles the amount of shit you need to memorize if you want to read. However, there are tools you can use to convert characters into pinyin, so theoretically any digital media could become readable relatively easily if you know the spoken language.

Vietnamese is just a bitch to pronounce, every other part of the language is easy.


>Are there any resources for it?
There's a few books on Amazon, but unless you speak Spanish it's hard to find good materials. The grammar is really nice and regular, so I think with sample texts, a dictionary, and some web pages as grammatical reference, it should be doable. But that's not an ideal situation, of course.
No. 14557
>Chinese is easy, just time consuming. The spoken language is one of the easiest in the world, it's just that the writing system doubles the amount of shit you need to memorize if you want to read. However, there are tools you can use to convert characters into pinyin, so theoretically any digital media could become readable relatively easily if you know the spoken language.
I heard that a number of times, and this tempts me to try it - what with the language itself being easy but one has to memorize a lot of symbols, and to be honest my brain is a spaghetti nowadays...

I can make out pinyin a little bit, so that might help me through my (next?) journey...

>Vietnamese is just a bitch to pronounce, every other part of the language is easy.
I kind of expected that - the language is easy part.

You know what's a bitch to pronounce? Paxto. WHY THE FUCK DOES A LANGUAGE NEEDS FIVE FORMS OF YE? And the script, oh the script. six iterations of the letter ح? thfuck?
Whenever I see Paxto I have the same feeling of how westerners look at Arabic, just scribbles, or sometimes, REALLY fucked up Arabic.

And you know what's amazeballs? I am thinking of delving in it because I am autist and Paxto fascinates me. ecks dee, di, dy.
No. 14560
27 kB, 402 × 348
I would like to learn Chinese but I'm not sure the Caucasoid skull is capable of containing and comprehending so many shapes and tones.
No. 14565
There aren't actually THAT many different shapes the combinations of which make up Chinese characters. Once you get the hang of it they stop looking like random strokes and memorizing them becomes more natural
t. casual learner of Chinese
No. 14566
It's pretty straight forward if you get the basics down.
The characters build on one another, and once you know a few basic ones, it'll stop being a random jumble if meaningless lines and becomes a reasonable code system.
No. 14569
Learning Kazakh pronunciation is hard for me because of my accent. We tend to speak very forward in the mouth, using flap-consonants liberally to facilitate this. Then in Kazakh, the throat makes probably more than half of the words in common use, so it's basically learning how to talk all over again.
No. 14573
Do some reading on phonetics. Once you know the nitty gritty of what's going on, it's very easy to pronounce all sounds in every language (except for tone and pharyngeals and clicks, those take practice even if you know what's going on).
No. 14574
I'm more concerned with understanding the language itself before learning to speak without a thick accent. People can find it tricky to understand you with an accent but impossible to understand you if you don't speak even kind of proper. As it stands with comparing to audio samples I have from the brick, my pronunciation is accented but probably passable. The biggest shortfall is just the vocab and grammar parts which I'm still a ways off on.

It's just funny that I catch myself not giving myself the throat cancer I need to be sometimes because I'm used to speaking mostly with the other end of my mouth.
No. 14594
What this good man said >>14573
Wikipedia has a very good IPA database that has audio samples on how does a certain letter sound, but for the muscle movement and throat contractions, I have no clue. As far as I know Kazakh does not have strange letters like Caucasus languages, but I am no judge of that as I havent had a good read on it, also we have a kazakh friend that would be a better judge on his language.

Coming to think of it...
>Arabic with thick Australian accent
[c&a intensifies]
But the amount of the word koss [Arabic for cunt] per sentence would be amazeballs
No. 14595
Oh, I am familiar with our resident brick. Now that I think about it, we would be coming up on hanging out for 2 years now. Jesus fuck, time flies.

Also cunt is less common than other four letter words. Mate is the most common by far and like pretty much any word like that is defined entirely contextually. Could be your best friend or the guy you are in a fist fight with.

One of my most common phrases is 'yeah nah mate' followed by something else. Like disapporving of something is "yeah nah mate, that's fucked" and the opposite being "yeah nah mate, that's hectic/sick".

Rate dialect.
No. 14601
fully sick/10
>fully sick/10
<fully sick/10

We say "son" a lot (yabny, which short for ya ibny - oh son!). My go to phrase is "son, please, have mercy" (yabny er7amny yabny!). Usually said when someone else is being an absolute idiot or stubborn or both.
No. 14603
Simultaneously sounds kind of polite and condescending. Ebin.
No. 14813
Can any of the Russian Ernst translate what he is saying?
No. 14817
My 7th symphony is inspired by hard events of 1941. I dedicated this composition to our struggle against fascism, to our future victory over the enemy, to my home town Leningrad. Now I will play an excerpt from the first part of the 7th symphony.
No. 14819
No. 14933
Trying to learn ukranian ang german again. It's 54254817th time I drop out and restart again, feels unfocused man.
No. 14934
532 kB, 3334 × 812
Why is Spain so heavily represented on the internet and why do I not notice this?
No. 14937
Can someone explain me the origins of language or share academic papers about it
No. 14940
2,5 MB, 310 pages
>Why is Spain so heavily represented on the internet
A brief article on the subject of language usage online. It breaks down native speakers online and online content available in each language.
>Can someone explain me the origins of language
I can't remember how or when I found this book, but it might be what you're looking for:
Speak:A Short History of Languages
No. 14941
thank you
No. 14974
Spain isn't, there's just half a billion people in Spanish America.
No. 14989
There's a few really weird countries I wouldn't expect who seem to now be having a presence online too, like Brunei and Mongolia.
No. 15017
Anyone got some experience with learning German grammar and syntax on your own? What kind of tools are useful? I lived in Germany for 5 years now and this is what I am struggling with the most. I have good vocabulary and good understand, just have hard time talking without butchering grammar and syntax.
No. 15019
Sounds like it must be a pain im the arse to learn proper German.
Maybe ask the russian with the learning thread. His Germam seems to be quite good.
No. 15031
I find that Duolingo is good for internalizing basic grammar, up to intermediate level for some courses.

I haven't tried their German course yet, but it's very low effort and free, and you can test out of the early levels that just teach vocabulary.
No. 15039
You need practice.
Practice, practice, practice.

The main issue is that you need to fully comprehend and understand the grammar of it, when to use what. thank you captain obvious that was fun.

Tools like Duolingo and Rosetta Stone may be great, but certainly not enough alone. Pick up a book about the language in Danish (and not one of those LERN TCHERMAN IN FIFE MINUT HIHI) so it would better provide you with an explanation about it.

What I would do, is watch German media intensively so I would get the feel of the language - ofcourse, Germans here would be a better judge of what to watch.

Or, if you're really serious about it (need it for work or something), go to a Goethe-Institut (or anything similar), learn the traditional way and interact with your teacher.

I learned German back in school for eight years and it went to rust. I used Duolingo to unrust it but found out it was not enough.

Later on I tried to pick up Greek and found out that the best method for me to learn a language on my own was a combination of Rosetta Stone + Duolingo + a book + online dictionary + some websites that broke down grammar for me. What I did miss was watching Greek media and practicing with someone. I figure it's the same for German as well.
No. 15981
No. 16016
This is sort of how American English sounds to me, especially for the younger generations. Older generations (35-40++) have a more decisive and respectful tone with lots of the very famous american friendliness.

Ofcourse all of that is my own personal experience with Americans from work and the internet and excluding American media.
No. 20093
Summer is coming, so I will have free time finally and I want to dedicate it to learning Hungarian - my unfinished gestalt for almost 10 years now.

Therefore I humbly ask Hungarians or anybody who learned it on his/her own to share some tips.

My request for now: what are good Hungarian radios? With music and some speaking.
Also, news sites in Magyar
Thanks in advance baratok
No. 20118
If I recall it right, Kossuth Rádió (https://www.mediaklikk.hu/kossuth-radio-elo/) is the one that broadcast shows and news. Don't know about music. There is no radio that broadcasts exclusively Hungarian music.

News sites, I don't know. I don't read the news.
I don't recommend index or 444 because their writings are crap when it comes to grammar and spelling. (Though index.hu is the most read one, and it has plenty of content on a multitude of subject from cultural events to politics related news.)(I'd consider 444.hu an overglorified blog in contrast, and their tone and wording is really poor in a lot of cases.)
Magyar Nemzet (https://magyarnemzet.hu/) has a print version, so that should be better, but then again, that might be overly political. (What isn't in this day and age, though?)
I've heard people say mandiner (https://mandiner.hu/) is good, but I'm just simply really anxious to recommend anything.
No. 20119
For radio stations you might want to look around here:
Since I just found it I can't give you an honest opinion. Most radios play both Hungarian and foreign songs. Bartók is for and about classical music, Kossuth is sure have a lot of talking.

As news sites... you might wanna forget those for now, how about checking https://www.nyest.hu/ out? It's mainly about languages, linguistics but you can find other topics, science and some politics as well.
No. 20120
Aw, man, I remember hearing about that one at school.
Shame I don't have the willpower to sit down and read through their articles properly.
No. 21644
No. 21645
Oh dog. I finished the Hungarian duolingo course, but it required extra perseverance. It is really humbling to try a language with so few loan words and so little relation to Germanic and Romance languages. Someday, I will return to the challenge. I just wish I had started when my grandfather was still alive. As a crotchety old man, whenever someone spoke to him with a thick hispanic accent, he would just respond in Hungarian.

Interesting resources, thanks for posting.
No. 21708

I believe all languages are weird
No. 21713
>Two sounds, those represented by the “th” in “bath” and “bathe”,
luke, use "Þ" and "Ð"
No. 21717
Where are the two different sounds?

It's an "a-th" and a "æ - th" to me.
No. 21724
Dunno, I thought one is more -s and other is more -z or something.
No. 21728
It has plenty of loanwords, you just don't see them, because they've been "magyarized" quite a bit. (And a lot of them are slavic or german loanwords, so they don't stand out to an English speaker, but there are plenty of latin ones too, since we used Latin up until the first part of the 19th century as a language of science and administration.)
The fact that during the "Language renewal" we also just sort of made up new words. (They usually have a sound etymology, it's just that they were artificially created to "renew" the language and cleanse it of cumbersome Latin and German terms.)
(But in a lot of cases those got "magyarized" too. Like for example they wrote Philosophia, which got turned into "Filozófia", "assimilating" it into the language, making it look more "natural".)
And of course I think the number of foreign loanwords depend heavily on what environment you use the language in. I doubt a bunch of workmen would get much out of you spouting words of Latin origin, but someone with a better education will probably understand you if you try "magyarizing" Latin words. (Though some people frown upon this. I got multiple complaints that I use too many foreign phrases and words.)
No. 21729
Bathe sounds like lathe
Bath sounds like thing
No. 21737
From memory they were interchangeable back in Old English too. You just didn't use eth at the beginning of a word for whatever reason. I mean, I'm all for bringing back Anglo-Saxon Latin as the alphabet, but it was only slightly less odd than the one we have now.
No. 21752 Kontra

Literally the same, just a slightly different vocal before the "th"

(And they showed that Americans can't even pronounce English vocals correctly.)
No. 21785 Kontra
That's literally the same as saying that z and s are literally the same. Just because your barbarian ears can't hear the distinction doesn't mean it isn't there.
No. 21819
102 kB, 630 × 420
Following OPs suggestion I started the Duolingo course on Japanese. The gamification suits me well, although I think I'll prefer to learn the grammar from some other resource. If you want, you can add me to your friend list, my user name is "6ToT6upK"

There is an achievement for having friends.
No. 21820 Kontra
Well done, dude. Also your gramps was a funny guy.
No. 21867
9 kB, 352 × 360
Befriended you. Srsly tho, what's the help of it? I don't see any features besides seeing your XP in comparison to mine.
No. 21874
Hello colin,

There are none except for an achievement. I think you get their virtual currency for achievements but I am not sure. Also, the virtual currency is useless to begin with. Still I feel less lonely. Maybe for some people seeing the XP gain of others is motivating because it gives a sense of competition.
No. 21884
Check out 4chan's guide to learning Japanese and prioritize learning kana and kanji. I used to study it but then I had things to and I've forgotten about it. I'll probably start again soon, we can keep each other motivated.
No. 21885 Kontra
things to do*
No. 34572
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Here's a zip with a torrent to a good pack of resources for learning Persian. I've used it before, and it's probably got enough resources to take you up to a low intermediate level. It's even got some Tajik resources, if you want to learn Persian with a normal human alphabet that writes all the vowels (but looks much uglier than Arabic script).

Of course, you would never learn Persian if not for some level of autism. But I think it's a good choice for several reasons:

  1. It's very easy to learn. Pronunciation is easier than Spanish, and the grammar is easier than any major European language. Very similar to English in some ways, but a bit more regular, and with fewer verb tenses and aspects. Unique among Indo-European languages, except for English and Bengali, it lacks all grammatical gender!
  2. Being by far the easiest regional language to learn, this is the best way to get a direct window into Middle Eastern culture and Islamic civilization, whether you have specific or general anthropological interest.
  3. There's a very large body of arthouse cinema made in Iran. I haven't seen any of it, but it's very well received internationally. Iran has an interesting subculture of film, where Marvel-style blockbusters are literally haram, so the only way talented directors can express themselves is through highbrow works.
  4. If you're not an American or Brit or Frenchman, Iran is supposed to be a very nice place to visit. The people are friendly, the food excellent, and it has amazing natural and man-made beauty that can't be found anywhere else.
  5. And if for some reason you ever want to visit Afghanistan or Tajikistan, Dari and Tajik are just regional dialects of Persian, so you can use your Persian language skills there. It's also still spoken by a lot of people in the big cities of Uzbekistan, though most of the population has by now switched to Uzbek.
Pics are tangentially related. As a minor hobby, I look at Google Streetview images of Iran. There are thousands of panorama shots from all over the country, but most of the time I find myself exploring the green forests of the Alborz mountains.
No. 34583
I wish I could visit Iran someday. It sadly isn't risky because of their people so much as their government. And the reason it's dangerous because of their government is because our government has acted like scummy assholes to their people for the better part of a century.
No. 34614
3,3 MB, 1920 × 953
3,4 MB, 1920 × 953
I know. The trip I'd most like to take is a motorcycle journey all across Iran, taking in the expansive desert vistas, the remote villages clinging to valley walls, the isles of greenery amidst the sea of brown and yellow, the rock-carved legacy of great empires, the lush rainforests of the north.

But even if I renounced my US citizenship, I'm still worried it'd be too dangerous. Some butthurt provincial basiji might get it in his head that I'm a CIA spy, and once you're behind bars, you're a political tool no matter what.
No. 34626
Even if you renounced your citizenship and stuff, your tour would be impossible, because Iran banned motorcycles, and they'll turn you away at the border if you ride one, even if you have a visa.
No. 34654
>Iran banned motorcycles
What? Really? What a based country!
No. 34684
If your bike is above 220cm^3 then you can only use it during weekends and outside populated areas, so it’s an effective ban.
No. 34685
Why do you know something like this?
No. 34686
Maybe EC shows wrong flag once again?
We have an Aussie under Britain ball.
No. 34703
Anyway, this law should be a model for every country.
No. 34903
No. 37706
The IPA is cool, but the problem with it is that the symbols aren't 100% precise. Like one example my linguistics textbook gave is that the [p] sound in Russian and English is slightly different, even though the same symbol is used. IPA symbols are precise in the context of a specific language, obviously.
No. 41702
Can people in England or Ireland understand just what in the absolute fuck Scottish people are even saying?
When is a language no longer even its parent language? Like is this what proto-Romance languages sounded like?
No. 41703
Uh, neither english nor scottish are of the romance language tree. English is germanic and scottish is most likely celtic.
Here, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg
No. 41704
I am aware of that. I apparently accidentally the end of that sentence.
>Like is this what proto-Romance languages sounded like to Romans?
It probably wasn't as clear given that wording. Meaning, is this like how the earliest splits sounded like in language splits. Or how modern Slavic languages might sound in their earlier archaic forms to speakers of some proto-Slavonic.
No. 46883
Just over a month ago, I found a good site for learning Japanese. Caveat: It's paid, and though cheap per month, it only bills per year, so I had to put down >$80 once the trial ended.

However, I don't regret it at all. The lessons are clear and informative, and the program's flashcards are integrated seamlessly with them. Most important for me, there's a daily streak system, which is very helpful in making sure that I do at least a bare minimum each day.

You can choose anything from a one-year to a four-year pace to complete their program, which will supposedly place you at JLPT N1, i.e. functionally equal to a native. From what I've seen so far, that seems plausible. At the very least, I'm sure that I've learned more in 30 days than I would in a semester-long university course. At an average of 2.5 lessons per day (the fastest pace being 4), I've covered 375 kanji and just under 500 vocabulary items. It takes about 1-2 hours per day, depending on whether or not I do the full 4 lessons. If I was taking the most casual pace with 1 lesson per day, it would probably take no more than 30 minutes (and by this point, I would be at ~160 kanji/200 vocab words).

Highly recommended if you have any interest in learning Japanese, especially if you're a lazy fuck and have trouble learning languages because of it: https://www.nativshark.com/my-journey
No. 47111
but russian sounds beautiful
No. 47112
>Portuguese and Spanish
only portuguese

the difference between european and latAm spanish is just the preference on pronouns (but both are accepted)
No. 47165
1,8 MB, 7653 × 5125
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Hello frens, here are a few of my favourite linguistics-related maps I've come across. There's a bit of variation in each due to the lack of consistent and reliable reporting of the information in the region so they're all interesting and a bit inconsistent. There's a lot of history from the details in these maps
enjoy frens
Thank you for the Persian resources fren. The (surprising) lack of resources for it seems like the hardest part about learning the langauge.
>I can throat sing a little bit!
Do you have any good resources for it? I've wanted to try to learn it as well.
Altai Hangai has a lot of other songs too you should check out if you haven't as well. Huun Huur Tu is a nice artist as well. Here's some stuff:
No. 47170
60 kB, 310 × 400
For the record, the FAST course really sucks.
I'm now using Beginner's Russian with Interactive Online Workbook by Anna S. Kudyma and Olga Kagan and it's far more functional, even if it isn't free.
No. 47317
Looks great. I've been thinking about getting one of those books[1] for quite some time now but having access to online resources is definitively a great props for learning

[1] https://www.tochkaru-book.com/
No. 47439
>Thank you for the Persian resources
I've found a surprising amount of decent materials for learning Persian. Much more than I expected. If I cared to devote the time to it, I don't think I would have a problem reaching fluency of understanding, even without finding a conversation partners.

On top of the torrent, there are a few decent and expansive online dictionaries (this is the best IMO https://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hayyim/), a site that takes a Persian short story and presents it with vowels and mouse-over translation (https://www.lib.washington.edu/static/public/neareast/yekruz/ - ignore the broken formatting and the warning about not using internet explorer, it works fine when you go to an individual section), and a website that lets you stream a ton of Iranian TV shows in their entirety for free (forgot the name and can't find the link ATM, but I can get it if you're interested).
No. 47539 Kontra
11 kB, 195 × 258
>I'm learning French, Korean, and Chinese

No other languages?
No. 54936
How much does Amish reflect modern German?
No. 54937
Frankly, I can't understand shit. Sounds like something they talk in the inbred villages of the alps.
No. 54938
>How much does Amish reflect modern German?
Not at all, I can only recognize very small fragments, like "Was" (What?), and even that sounds screwed from the pronounciation. The fact that it is a little muffled doesn't help things either.
No. 54940
Very little. The pronouns are similar, and some simple words I can recognise, like gucken, gehe, leben, mit=>metz/s and so on, but otherwise it's not really similar, it went through a lot of sound changes too by the looks. It also seems to be mixed with English when it comes to the vocabulary. (If I didn't have the translation in English, I wouldn't have understood anything.)
The cause is probably the fact that like >>54937 said it's not descended from Hochdeutsch/Standard German but from some weird dialect that you'd have trouble understanding even if you encountered it in Germany as a German.
Like I was studying German for three years in HS, met two Swiss people and I did not understand a single word they said to each other in their dialect.
No. 54941
I want to add, there are still people speaking "Penssylvania Dutch", seemingly also in part by some kind of amish/quaker/whatevers, which is largely derived from the palatinate dialect.


Basically it sounds like someone from the palatinate region speaking with a pronounced american accent. Of course there are some words nobody uses anymore, but I can understand most of what they're saying.
No. 82787
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Became interested in linguistics few months ago thanks to a good scipop book >>76536 . Consoomed some content (books, youtube, etc) on Ukrainian and Belarusian, since they're mutually intelligible with Russian. Tried to do same trick with English -- no, even Frisian is too hard. Then decided to learn language as far from native as possible. Studied Hebrew for 2 months, but recently thought that Arabic is better than merchant runes in all regards and switched to it. Both languages belong to Semitic group, there are many similarities (from perspective of beginner), and experience in one helps in other. Also there are older forms of Russian language. I've already read Avvakum's autobiography (17-th century), now going further to past.
http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=10944#_ednref1 - a good site. Can switch original/translation-to-modern/both.

> Our cases is kinda what replace your "times".
There are forms for different times, but there are also forms for different genders and single/plural forms, which are redundant because usually they can be determined by corresponding noun.

Next 5 years. =D
No. 82799
>Penssylvania Dutch

Holy shit that was amazing. Thank you for the link.
No. 82959
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I wonder what they're up to...

A truly beautiful language, enjoying much.
No. 82974

الموت لأمريكا
No. 83016 Kontra
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No. 83022
>Unique among Indo-European languages, except for English and Bengali, it lacks all grammatical gender!
What about Afrikaans, Ossetic, Central Kurdish, Balochi, Assamese, and probably most of Insular Indo-Aryan? Tok Pisin and Bislama don't even distinguish between "he" and "she". I'd expect Scots to be similar to English but can't find anything on Wikipedia. Colloquial Welsh has gender in the singular, but if I understand correctly, gender can only affect nouns themselves (by mutation) and ten specific adjectives, but not possessives (which behave like (other) adjectives) (nor articles?).

>IPA symbols are precise in the context of a specific language
If the notation is phonological (as opposed to phonetical), yes. Phonological notation is often given between slashes, for example /tiʃ/.
But if the notation is phonetical (as opposed to phonological), it should be somewhat language-independent. Phonetical notation is given between square brackets, for example [tʰɪʃʷ].
In most cases and as far as I can tell, I've found phonetical notation on English Wiktionary and English Wikipedia to be so precise as to not require any knowledge about the phonology of the language or dialect on the part of the reader. The editors diligently add the proper marks to distinguish between, for example, various voiceless bilabial stops, such as the aspirated [pʰ] in English pot, the unaspirated [p] in English spot and Russian пыль, the palatalized [pʲ] in Russian пять, and the [p̚] (no audible release) at the end of Cantonese, Taiwanese, Hakka, Sino-Vietnamese, and Sino-Korean 十 "10". Or various voiceless velar stops, such as the aspirated [kʰ] in English cough, the unaspirated [k] in English scum and Russian кот, the palatalized [kʲ] in Russian Кёнигсберг, and the [k̚] (no audible release) in Saigon Vietnamese Việt Nam and at the end of Cantonese, Taiwanese, Hakka, and Sino-Korean 六 "6". Same for all manner of other things, such as vowels, tone, voice, or different varieties of R-ish and L-ish sounds.
No. 83072
> I'd expect Scots to be similar to English but can't find anything on Wikipedia.
Scots experienced a morphological evolution nearly identical to Middle English. How would it even express a noun's gender in its current state? By the choice of anaphorical pronouns alone? That's extremely unlikely even from a typological perspective (basically, no agreement with attributives, predicates or at least determiners - no gender, and Scots, much like English, doesn't seem to have any morphological means for such agreement).
>What about Afrikaans, Ossetic, Central Kurdish, Balochi, Assamese, and probably most of Insular Indo-Aryan?
Somehow everyone has forgot Armenian.
No. 83084
I see, thanks.
As I said, that's what I expected but didn't know about about Scots.
And it's not so much that I tried to make an exhaustive list and forgot Armenian, but that I just off the top of my head came up with a few likely candidates and then skimmed their respective Wikipedia articles to check. Didn't think to check Armenian and probably many others.

Also had to look up whether it's "off the top of my head" or "off the top of my hat" because zey sound alike in German English.
No. 83100
I was trying to learn Russian during 2020 but lost internet connection
I think I should start again
Bath is voiceless, like s or t; bathe is voiced, like z or d
No. 83182
>I think I should start again
Best of luck. With the endless exceptions you gonna need it. As if the relatively complex inflectional morphology, the extremely non-English phonetics and the rather complicated word order weren't bad enough.
No. 83191
270 kB, 867 × 751
Cursed be orthographies like English and current Russian for not indicating stress.
No. 83198
Not indicating stress is a major problem for foreign learners indeed. On pair with "e" which can mean virtually anything (the normal softening "e", the replacement of "ё" and the non-softening "e" in loanwords; the worst thing is that in loanwords it's impossible to predict whether "e" is softening or not, so even native speakers are occasionally unsure about the correct pronunciation).
No. 83327
In Arabic "t-shirt" is called "t-shirt" despite Arabic "T" (both of them) don't look like t-shirt.

In my perception Baltic languages were considered very weird and alien because of confusion with Finno-Ugric belters, but turns out that they not only belong to Indo-European family, but also to Slavo-Baltic branch of it.
No. 83330
>In Arabic "t-shirt" is called "t-shirt" despite Arabic "T" (both of them) don't look like t-shirt.
Actually the letter for the emphatic T strongly resembles T turned upside down. But anyway, it's ti: shi:rt, not ta shi:rt.
No. 83331
>In my perception Baltic languages were considered very weird and alien
If you know all the phonetic shifts (which have mostly occurred in the Slavic part) and the differences in morphology, you can start decoding some simple sentences even without knowing the languages themselves. The set of common roots is pretty large (I mean, even without common loans and Slavicisms in the Baltic languages). If you know German, it's even better.
No. 83807
Czech is the only Slavic language, where swearing is mostly related to shitting, not sex. Because of German influence.

It was a good reform, but why didn't they abolish "ъ" entirely, replacing it with "ь"?
No. 83832
214 kB, 915 × 1280
How language influences cognitive skills. Taken from https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/fulltext/S1364-6613(22)00236-4
No. 83843
This week I noticed that having the word-final ъ in Russian pre-reform orthography helps me (as somebody who hardly understands the language) to know when a dot marks an abbreviation (namely, when there is a consonant followed by a dot without the expected ъ in between) instead of the end of a sentence.
Of course, this alone doesn't justify its existence.
No. 83855
>It was a good reform, but why didn't they abolish "ъ" entirely, replacing it with "ь"?
Because in some cases СʲjV and CjV are contrasted (at least almost universally with C = d, t). In theory, one could use й plus uniotated vowels, but that would look quite extraterrestrial.
No. 84034
dat interestin'.

i kno most hate it, but i luv the "non standard" or slang most ppl use.

on the other hand: Ernst, what do you think of !w constructed languages?
they are usually some troll languages or hyper-motivated-"dis be best" languages like Esperanto .. but the idea seems ineteresting.

Do you think it's worth learning one of those?
No. 84043
Earnlay igpay atinlay oserlay.
No. 84044 Kontra
otnay articularrypay interestedyay.
No. 84054
Aybemay orfay ouyay :-DDD
t. igpay atinlay appreciatoryay
No. 84056
>on the other hand: Ernst, what do you think of !w constructed languages?
>they are usually some troll languages or hyper-motivated-"dis be best" languages like Esperanto .. but the idea seems ineteresting.
Artistic languages: by all means yes.
Auxiliary languages: a naive concept and mostly just a loss of time and effort.
No. 84067
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Absolutely ebin!
No. 84550
165 kB, 854 × 1050
Stress in Russian
One of the first things I've been taught about Russian was that stress is on ё-syllables.
But every time a native Russophone from Mogilev Oblast' said the city's name (Russian: Могилёв) in a German sentence, it sounded like they were stressing the first syllable. Was this perhaps their adaption of the name to Germanic stress patterns (I haven't found stress information for the English name), or did I perceive wrong, or is this a case where ё isn't stressed?
No. 84552 Kontra
I probably perceived wrong. English Wiktionary says stress is on the last syllable: [məɡʲɪˈlʲɵf]
No. 84554
Ё cannot be unstressed simply because of the rules of Russian phonology (/o/ doesn't exist in unstressed syllables, aside from some particular bivocalic combinations of foreign origin). Official pronunciations of some foreign toponyms like Мальмё are artificial and will either require considerable efforts to pronounce as intended or will result in something like "Мальми". In your case some subjective perceptional issues are the most likely reason.
No. 84557 Kontra
No. 84566
There was a funny copypasta about problems of stress in Russian:
https://neolurk.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0:KFC - original
https://justpaste.me/lzJv2 - google translate + read and fixed few obvious mistakes

How does this "invisible hand of phonology" work? I can pronounce words with unstressed ё easily, but there are just no such words in vocabulary to pronounce. And I'm almost sure I heard rural grandmas saying such words (in videos about dialects). Alternative hypotheses: it's because of our script. Lazy Russians don't write dots above ё, then forget that they ever were there unless they are stressed and pronounced properly.
No. 84572
>translated and corrected
Thank you.
What an odd story.
No. 84580
>How does this "invisible hand of phonology" work?
In the way there's one natural way to pronounce words. In theory, no one forbids you to split "moloko" into three phonetic words and pronounce them in a row, but that obviously would require larger articulatory efforts and isn't normal, and it isn't what you would do without consciously controlling your pronunciation either.

>And I'm almost sure I heard rural grandmas saying such words (in videos about dialects).
And... what else would you expect? North Russian dialects have an entirely different vowel system. What's more noteworthy, however, is that even central Russian dialects with okanye reduce most post-tonic vowels into shit; consistently preserving the quality of all unstressed vowels is typical only to some of north Russian proper dialects.

Akanye makes all unstressed /o/-s to merge with all other non-close vowels in some manner. After soft consonants there are basically three patterns defining the ultimate result (and other affected vowels). Ikanye is the currently predominant variant in the city koine (native to Moscow), which means that they merge together with /i/ into [ɪ] (or a more centralized vowel depending on the exact position).
No. 84582
2,5 MB, 1550 × 2400
> there's one natural way to pronounce words
OK, but I mean more specific reason. Why in Russian of pronunciation words with unstressed "ё" are unnatural? Why for Finns (Мальмё is their word, I presume) it's natural? I think, swamp people including northern Russians have different shape of skull, which allows them to pronounce such words.
No. 84583
I'll reformulate my question. Yes, it's mostly random why Finns have their way of pronunciation and Russian have their, could be opposite way theoretically. But is it theoretically possible that some people speak (naturally, without forcing themselves) Russian way of pronunciation but with unstressed ё? If not, which objective laws of phonology contradict this?
No. 84584
>But is it theoretically possible that some people speak (naturally, without forcing themselves) Russian way of pronunciation but with unstressed ё?
That's sounds mutually exclusive. Akanye is an empyrical fact of standard Russian phonology, and the lack of unstressed ё-s is just one of its results. Mind you, ё as a letter is special here only because orthographically it's basically an ad hoc decision for denoting /o/ after soft consonants (something totally absent in Church Slavonic, on which the Russian orthography is roughly based otherwise). If our orthography were based on the phonology of 13th century Old Russian instead, we could be writing чёловек, нёсу, пёку, дерёво etc., but, of course, we would pronounce those just the same as we pronounce them now.
No. 84594
Thanks for explanations.
No. 84605
12 kB, 720 × 288
>different shape of skull
Just in case you weren't joking: It has nothing to do with genetics, let alone even body features. If you put Russian babies into Finnish families, they will grow up to speak perfect Finnish, and Russian will be difficult to pronounce for them. And the other way round. What's at work here are not universal
>objective laws of phonology
but language-specific ones, which do change over time and space, and many languages right now have unstressed [jo] or similar, for example in mayonnaise (I think German doesn't have unstressed /jo/ in "native" Germanic stock, only in such loanwords and proper names, but no German child has any trouble pronouncing it; I see Standard Russian applies akanye there, and I would expect Russian speakers to need conscious effort to pronounce it with an unstressed /jo/ because I've heard them struggle with other words such as German Krokodíl, Hotél or Problém), so there is no universal law preventing this, and some future version of Standard Russian may develop an unstressed ё. But in our time, phonological change in major languages is slowed down by factors such as mass media, universal schooling, orthography, mobility, and prestige of the "standard". If those unifying factors were greatly reduced, dialectal variety would probably emerge/increase because the then more isolated places where the language is spoken would have a greater likelihood of changing it in a different way from other disconnected clusters, sending it on a different trajectory in each dialect uterus.
Perhaps you will find better answers in
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Фонология for how things generally work,
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Русская_фонетика for Russian in particular, and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics (no Russian Wikipedia article).
I think Мальмё is Malmö in southern Sweden, and
>it's natural
doesn't apply here because it's not /jo/ but /ø/ in Swedish.
No. 84609 Kontra
Searching for something to illustrate Krokodilprobleme, I found some cartoons: >>/b/63352
No. 84610 Kontra
275 kB, 1020 × 600
> Just in case you weren't joking:
I just thought whether Finns could belong to Ibero-Negroid race.

srry xDDD
No. 84617 Kontra
Today I learned
>Irish are crypto-Africans
Am I the only one left who isn't Mongol or Negroid? Feels white, man.
No. 84618 Kontra
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> de.PNG
I doubt.
No. 85094
1 kB, 254 × 287
Why can you say "Go fetch me a drink" but not "I went buy shoes"? Can you omit the "to" in simple present and imperative but not in progressive or past forms?
No. 85097
I think the omission here is not "to" in past, but "and" in present.

The full form would be "Go and fetch me a drink". In which case the past form would be "I went and bought shoes"
No. 85098
But if it were and (followed by another indicative), an omission would result in:
*She goes and buys shoes.

Whereas if it is to (followed by infinitive), an omission results in:
?She goes to buy shoes.
My English isn't good enough to say if the latter is acceptable.

?She has to go to buy shoes. (to-infinitive of "go")
?She goes to buy shoes. (simple present of "go")
*She's going to buy shoes. (present progressive of "go")
*She went to buy shoes. (simple past)
?She will go to buy shoes. (future)

BTW, in Standard German, all those are formed without zu: Sie ging Schuhe kaufen. (simple past of gehen + infinitive of kaufen). But you can instead use und: Sie ging und kaufte Schuhe. (simple past of gehen + simple past of kaufen).
No. 85099
Thinking about it some more, it doesn't seem to matter what tense the entire sentence is in. Only the word immediately preceding the "(to) infinitive" is important. If the preceding word is literally "go" (doesn't matter if it's in turn preceded by "will" or "had to" or not), I think you may omit the "to" after it. If it's "goes", I don't know. If it's anything else (for example, "going" or "went"), I think you must not omit the "to" after it. Anglos, is this correct?
No. 85102 Kontra
Good luck getting answers.

Anglos don't know the rules of their own grammar. They don't learn English grammar at school, and some of them don't even know English has grammar. (Only foreign languages have annoying stuff like cases and tenses and shit, lol)

Not an answer (I don't know the answer), but a hint on why the question itself might be treacherous:
Sie ging Schuhe kaufen./Sie ging, um Schuhe zu kaufen.
No. 85104
What I'm asking the Anglos is simply if they deem the example sentences I've marked with a "?" acceptable. All they need for that is a native speaker's feel or intuition.

I would have to think about whether the semantic difference between "to" for "in order to" on one hand and other, purely auxiliary uses of "to" on the other is at all relevant here, and how.
No. 85108
>Why can you say "Go fetch me a drink" but not "I went buy shoes"?
Imperative constructions often have their peculiarities (up to specific imperative words).
Anyway, in colloquial Russian motion verbs allow general serialization of that kind, my favourite example being я в институт расписание ездила смотрела - "I (fem.) into (the) instute (the) schedule went watched", because it cannot be possibly re-analyzed in any other way.
No. 85113
As for "go fetch me sth", it's easy to analyze it just as a special combination of two independent imperatives, which is also why "went fetch sth" would be agrammatical (instead it's the usual "I went and fetched sth").
No. 85121
But are "She goes buy shoes", "She will go buy shoes", "She would go buy shoes", "She must go buy shoes", and "She had to go buy shoes" also grammatical? No imperative involved there.

I regret using the "drink" example, it didn't do a good job of illustrating my question apparently.
No. 85124
I'm no native speaker, but those don't really sound grammatical to me. If you Google "she goes buy" you'll mostly see obvious typos of "she goes by", irrelevant pages or some disturbing samples of generally broken and unnatural English. But let's see what native English speakers will tell us.
No. 85129
>She has to go to buy shoes. (to-infinitive of "go")
The second 'to' is optional. Technically it is required but without it the meaning doesn't change significantly, and the sentence sounds more casual.

>She goes to buy shoes. (simple present of "go")
>She's going to buy shoes. (present progressive of "go")
>She went to buy shoes. (simple past)

'to' is required in each sentence.

>She will go to buy shoes. (future)
'to' is optional. Like the first sentence it doesn't change the meaning significantly.

I believe the confusion may stem from misidentifying the role of the word 'to' in these examples. Typically, 'to' is a preposition or an adverb but, in this case, it is a shortened version of the conjunction "in order to".

>But are "She goes buy shoes", "She will go buy shoes", "She would go buy shoes", "She must go buy shoes", and "She had to go buy shoes" also grammatical?
The first in not, the rest are.
No. 85137
So my rule works:
If the preceding word is go, you can drop the to:
They go (to) buy shoes.

If it's anything else, against my expectation including even goes, you cannot drop the to.

>I believe the confusion may stem from misidentifying the role of the word 'to' in these examples.
I believe that has nothing to do with it, otherwise how do you explain that
*She goes buy shoes.
is ungrammatical according to you, but
They go buy shoes. (or presumably any other subject that isn't third-person singular) isn't? (Not sure about this last one, though. If it turned out you deem They go buy shoes ungrammatical as well, then I'd wonder why She will go buy shoes and She has to go buy shoes are acceptable to you.)
No. 85138
140 kB, 500 × 500
Forgot to thank you for helping out a language beggar.
No. 85143 Kontra
Trying to embiggen the pictures in OP throws a 404 for me, for example:
No. 85151
7,0 MB, 640 × 360, 1:54
>If the preceding word is go, you can drop the to
While trying to find a concise explanation as to why this structure works, I found attached vid. tldr: Casual speech

Thinking about your example "They go buy shoes" there are two distinct actions: 'they go' and 'they buy'. However, there is no conjunction- we get away with just dropping it altogether. The sentence shouldn't work but in casual speech it does.

No problem.

Same result with many old pictures. #Mysteries
No. 85177
>Go + Verb.mp4
Thanks, but your video fails to even mention what I've been going on about for example in >>85137, namely that you cannot use that structure if the subject is third-person singular, for seemingly no reason at all. That, and not the structure in itself, is what confuses me. If you still haven't understood what I mean:
I go buy shoes. ✓
You go buy shoes. ✓
We go buy shoes. ✓
They go buy shoes. ✓
Alice and Bob go buy shoes. ✓
Alice goes buy shoes. ← wrong according to >>85129

No. 85924
19 kB, 462 × 280
  1. Your country
  2. Do you speak standard version of your language? Does your language have a standard? Do you like this standard? Is there a correct accent? Do you speak it? What do you think about non-standard versions of your language?
No. 85925
I'll wait for the linguist Russian to reply and then will criticize his answer.
Everyone speaks almost the same way except for Kavkaz republics and central-Asian migrants. Geographical differences are negligible.
No. 85926
The correct accent is what you hear in Hollywood movies: Generic, soulless. Mine is nasally, which is common in Western New York. Accent rankings: Southern is the best and Boston is the worst.
No. 85927
296 Bytes, 17 × 18
No. 85928
I have a southern accent :3

Norwegian is a clusterfuck after the "bourgeois" standard norm 'rigsmaal' was abolished. I wish we still had this as the written standard as it aids in reading quickly. Not even talking about nynorsk, people that write 'Bokmål' spell things differently.

I heard a lot of people try to speak less southern, is that true? Maybe it's just the ones who move somewhere else. Interestingly enough southern Norwegian is also the best accent. (:
No. 85938

>I heard a lot of people try to speak less southern, is that true? Maybe it's just the ones who move somewhere else.
I hadn't heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's a strong accent which immediately marks someone as 'not from here' if used up North or out West. When travelling in the South, I was aware that I stood out when speaking. It didn't matter much because I was just passing through, but if I lived there, I would be more comfortable if I could just blend in.
No. 85975

>Everyone speaks almost the same way except for Kavkaz republics and central-Asian migrants. Geographical differences are negligible. 

Migrants aside (and the Russian language of Dagestan is a curious phenomenon), the city koine is indeed more or less homogeneous (as a combined result of the rapid Soviet industrialization and the long-standing stigmatization of the most prominent dialectal phonetic features). However, there are exceptions to that, i.e. cities where a large share of speakers noticeably diverts from the more standard patterns. That usually happens in the areas where varieties of Ukrainian or Rissan dialects with okanye used to be (and/or are) spoken. Weak central Russian okanye (in pre-tonic syllables) is still sufficiently common in Nizhny Novgorod (despite being strongly stigmatized in general); "shy okanye", being practically unstigmatized (because no one realizes it as okanye), remains widespread in many northern European areas (especially in northern Preduralye, including the city of Perm), and in the areas with Ukrainian rural dialects similar patterns emerge as well (you can hear a lot of it in Krasondar Krai). I haven't been hearing yakanye anywhere for a very long while, though, as well as the Russian fricative gh (the Ukrainian one is a different story), meaning the most distinctive phonetic features of South Russian dialects remain strictly limited to rural communities and thoroughly avoided or simply dead otherwise (mind you, the people of South Russian origin are much more numerous than those of the North Russian one, at least as far as old dialectal borders are concerned, and the central Russian dialects with akanye are just a relatively narrow stripe).

As I was born in Moscow in the 1980s, I speak something that is quite close to standard Russian norms, that's for certain (at least as close as any colloquial form of Russian gets, because there are some standard elements that virtually no one observes in everyday speech anywhere).
No. 85976
P.S.: Of course, there are some modern regionalisms (like St.Petersburgian porébrik "curb" or pan-Siberian multifóra "punched pocket"), as well as occasional remainders of old dialectisms (mind you, all Russian dialects always retained perfect mutual intelligibility to begin with, unlike, say, in Germany or Italy), but they're too few to make a difference.
No. 85984
> okanye, figokanye
It means: "if you took a linguistic major and studied all 58 types of "o" sounds for year, then you can notice it". The only difference distinguishable by normies is Kubanoids and Ukrainians saying "gh" instead of "g". And 3-4 region-specific meme words. There are no dialects in Russian.
No. 85987
When you pronounce clear [o] where [ɐ] or [ə] should be it's damn difficult not to notice (and kinda automatically makes you subhuman in the eyes of a large share of the population). Same with South Russian yakanye.

— Петя, к доске! Рассказывай домашнее стихотворение.
— Поздняя осень, грачи улятели...
— Сидоров, почему "улятели"? Сначала давай.
— Поздняя осень, грачи улятели...
— Сидоров, ну почему "улятели"-то?
— Почему, почему... Клявать нечего, вот и улятели!

Shameful okanye is much more difficult to pinpoint, but still people often notice that "they speak in a strange manner".
>The only difference distinguishable by normies is Kubanoids and Ukrainians saying "gh" instead of "g".
South Russians (Kursk-Penza and southwards) do too (though it's [ɣ] rather than [ɦ]). Except it can be heard awfully rare now. The more typical giveaway is the residual [x] instead of [k] where /g/ gets positionally devoiced (друх, снех etc.), but, of course, it affects Ukrainian dialects as well.
No. 85992
P.S.: My cousin from Rostov Oblast tends to pronounce more guttural [χ] instead of [x] (which is a distinct feature of south-eastern Ukrainian dialects). Hard to miss either to me, but that's something highly regional, of course.

In fact, most Ukrainian speakers easily learn to avoid [ɦ] in Russian. Residual okanye or just a generally broken vowel system, soft [ʦʲ] and the inability to accurately reproduce standard Moscow [tɕ] are more stable.
No. 85993 Kontra
*"shy okanye"
No. 86003 Kontra
79 kB, 512 × 604
> ɐ, ɣ, ɦ, χ, x, ə, ʦʲ, tɕ
No. 86007
Will you say that this guy from Nizhniy speaks just normal Russian? :)
No. 86025
> muh rural grandpa
And yes, if not the context of the discussion, I wouldn't pay attention to it.