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No. 6343
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An article in Foreign Affairs last month hypothesising a coming battle between liberal democracy and digital authoritarianism had a paragraph that has really stuck with me:

>Even the mere existence of this kind of predictive control will help authoritarians. Self-censorship was perhaps the East German Stasi's most important disciplinary mechanism. AI will make the tactic dramatically more effective. People will know that the omnipresent monitoring of their physical and digital activities will be used to predict undesired behavior, even actions they are merely contemplating. From a technical perspective, such predictions are no different from using AI health-care systems to predict diseases in seemingly healthy people before their symptoms show. In order to prevent the system from making negative predictions, many people will begin to mimic the behaviors of a "responsible" member of society. These may be as subtle as how long one's eyes look at different elements on a phone screen. This will improve social control not only by forcing people to act in certain ways, but also by changing the way they think. A central finding in the cognitive science of influence is that making people perform behaviors can change their attitudes and lead to self-reinforcing habits. Making people expound a position makes them more likely to support it, a technique used by the Chinese on U.S. prisoners of war during the Korean War. Salespeople know that getting a potential customer to perform small behaviors can change attitudes to later, bigger requests. More than 60 years of laboratory and fieldwork have shown humans' remarkable capacity to rationalize their behaviors.

I was wondering, do you notice yourself engaging in any behaviours as a response to the knowledge that you're potentially being watched or that certain things may trigger an algorithm? Perhaps you're about to order large quantities of fertiliser but then remember you don't want a visit from the police (https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/marrows-terror-giant-vegetable-grower-731367).

I've certainly noticed that I stop myself at times from asking certain questions of google and instead rephrase the request. In real life I'm also constantly aware whenever I go near government buildings or the ring of steel in London that my movements are being tracked and that I'd better at least pretend that I'm an upstanding human being.

Also: Hello, Government Agents. I think you'll find we're all a bit too...Cerebral to be of any threat. Feel free to come and chill with us though, I imagine the reams of data you have to read through must get a little tedious.
No. 6348
Nah. I use adblock online, and I don't use any social media site that requires a login.
So I don't see the consequences of my searches online return to me in the ads, or in being banned from sites.
In real life? I don't particularly like talking about politics because I don't want to alienate people who's good will could be of potential help to me.
And I'm not particularly scared of the gumbint's Big Brother either, particularly because I don't think our state apparatus has that capacity. It certainly had it before '89, but now, I'd say it's laughable to think that an agent from the secret service is watching me and marking me up for writing "Kill all gypsies" into an online post.
No. 6350
I give it until 2025 for the political class to be dragged into the street and shot. Any later than that and their grip's going to be too strong and their view too pervasive for citizens to organise against them in any meaningful way.

Adblock doesn't stop passive trawling for data. If we can do it with our internet infrastructure, than a country in Europe can do it too with your far more developed internet infrastructure and our government definitely does do it.
No. 6351
Pretty unrelated to the article, but this qoute got me thinking.
>For decades, most political theorists have believed that liberal democracy offers the
only path to sustained economic success

Liberal democracies have had low birthrates for a few decades, as well as stagnating wages and a major housing crisis. How come there are experts who believe that liberla democracies bring coninious economic prosperity?

I know that linking sources is necessary when you make claims but I am tired and will do so only if anyone disagrees with my viewpoint and wants to argue about it.
No. 6353
But I don't exactly care if I don't bear the consequences for it to be honest.
No. 6359
Well, have you looked at how well planned economies have faired? Even the modern 'alternatives' offer a high degree of economic liberalism and a precarious balance on personal freedom to drive innovation and consumption. The article is directly referencing the prevailing view of the 90s whereby China was assumed certain to eventually democratise.

Liberal democracies of course undergo recession but the thing is, that represents a low-point rather than the norm. Wages have stagnated over the past decade but, in the grand scheme of things, that this is a new complaint is itself evidence of success.

>low birthrates

This is really a different kettle of fish whose only sure-fire solutions appears to be independence celebrations (à la Africa in the 60s), winning a major war or going bat-shit crazy like Ceaușescu. Urbanisation appears as a major cause but that entails that the very structure of the information age being wrong that you can't exactly walk out on.

To be honest I'm also a bit skeptical on how much danger this poses. Rising automation and life-spans will no doubt continue to soften the blow of productivity losses while the elderly tend towards lower consumption but much higher savings and investments which creates a different normal (the BoE now models on sustained low-interests rates) but one that may ultimately prove more stable.
No. 6362
>libertarian democracies vs. digital authoritarian regimes

Sounds like a new Cold War paradigm
But tbh it is misleading to label them as digital, like lib. democracies don't use technology and AI.

I can understand the threatening feel of surveillance but we shouln't close the future in panic. Maybe there will be new ways to go possibilities to betray the system. How much do we hear from chinese upheaval or unsatisfied or angry masses? I wouldn't deny the country is taking the fast lane concerning economic rise but I doubt digitally sustained authoritarianism has no flaws or breaking points that could be uses in the future. We need to reflect on how we open and close the contemporary and future by making hypothesis ourselves.
No. 6368
I remember reading about a fiction writer who worried their research into how to dispose of dead bodies was going to get them into trouble. I can't say I've ever looked into that, but I have looked into a lot of weird stuff. The only time I was ever really concerned was when I was researching Waco. I know any keyword filter worth it's salt is going to include that one, but at the same time it's a large enough topic with enough interest I decided I was unlikely to stand out. That seems to be the balm I apply to any worries about my Googling. I know that if I ever trip over an algorithm and actually attract human attention, it won't ever go anywhere. So this awareness of being watched does kind of alter my behaviour, in that I find I always have to have an excuse or explanation at the ready. I have even imagined myself showing my notes to any letter agencies that show up at the door.
It was a good article, but the authors list of solutions at the end:
>governments and societies should rigorously limit domestic surveillance and manipulation. Technology giants should be broken up and regulated.Governments need to ensure a diverse, healthy media environment, for instance by ensuring that overmighty gatekeepers such as Facebook do not reduce media plurality
And if wishes were horses beggars would ride.
No. 6393
I already see this behavior even on Steam. I have little hope for freedoms and liberty in the upcoming century anywhere except maybe like Ireland and Iceland, and even then that's ruled over by the soft fascism of the EU, none of which compares to the sheer horror that is China. There will likely be no free societies nor even a pretense of being one by 2050.
No. 6397
>low birthrates
>bad for economy

You know the birthrates went down because economy is striving and allows you to exist without 6 kids who will work as a pension replacement?
A nation can make profits without a large population, take Tringapore e.g.
No. 6398
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there are things i don't talk about near a microphone or speaker (essentially the same) or would ever type into a bot-net machine.

or use it. trying to provoke a "reaction" to see if you hit something or are just over-paranoid.

i value knowledge over my own safety. at least in some regards.
No. 6411
> low birthrate
Why do people constantly bring this up? Birthrates are not some magical number that shows prosperity on the contrary the most shitty places in the world today has more children per women but none of the children survives.

So pleas stop it with the brain dead "hurr duur muh birthrate", because it ultimately is low iq religious people who are worried that condoms exists.
No. 6413
> I was wondering, do you notice yourself engaging in any behaviours ...

No. Well yes, I don't use Google because it locks me in its bubble and in the end only shows results that it thinks I want, not the things I really want.

https://www.unbubble.eu/ and https://duckduckgo.com/ works better for the majority of cases. That is for repeated searches. If you are only doing one search then Google might get a better result but the more you use it the worse it gets.
No. 6430
>I was wondering, do you notice yourself engaging in any behaviours as a response to the knowledge that you're potentially being watched or that certain things may trigger an algorithm?

Yes. I have found a good solution to a lot of that even. When I buy books, I go to the local book store. When I need gardening equipment, I go to the store for home improvement stuff (whatever you call that store in english). I evade an entire class of surveillance while supporting local stores (I also avoid chains if possible). AND I get to spend some time walking around instead of sitting at home. It's a win/win/win situation.

But then I'm also the guy without a mobile phone, without facebook, twitter, whatsapp and whatever else is new in applied graph theory. I'm not smug about it, though, promise. I'm not even vegan
No. 6431
You are falling into the big trap that I constantly see people stumble into: Thinking you can blend into the masses.

I work in AI research at my uni and I am actively interested in the entire topic, coding up my own experiments in my free time and so on. Please, let me guarantee you that there is no way for you to blend in just because a lot of other people also search for the same thing.
How to find a needle in 50 million sticks of hay has been figured out quite well even in the time before large scale computerization. It was introduced here to fight the RAF in the 70s, it was called Rasterfahndung and it worked.

The pit fall here is the following principle: Humans categorize into guilty and not guilty when they think about their behaviour in relation to their authority (neutral term for any possible state, try not to interpret what I say as agitation but rather scientific excourse). But when you train a neural network in AI research, you quickly learn that grouping into A or B (eg guilty/not guilty) you aren't extracting even a fraction of the information that's in your data. Instead of two categories, which human brains favour, we can have arbitrary many labels. For example: Has searched for 'Waco', has also searched for 'Texas', has also searched for 'firearm', has also searched for 'control', has also searched for 'restriction', ..., has also searched for 'diaper'.
There will be someone who has searched for the exact same 50 terms as you, except 'diaper'. You will not be labelled in the same category. The reason is that nobody has to make up categories that mean anything to a human mind, instead the neural nets are creating their own categories on the fly as soon as they notice a significant clustering happening.

Look into algorithms like k-means and DBScan for the simple, algorithmic, non-ML version. These algorithms are combined with ML algorithms like random forest etc and they again are combined with neural networks.

Here is one major crux: Humans may be sitting there but they don't know that the neural net has actually learned. There is no way for neural networks to explain why they have learned something in a certain way, they can not explain themselves. People hear the term 'data analyst' and think that in the end there is some person evaluating if you are a terrorist or a housewife, but that's more like wishful thinking. People working with these systems tend to eventually just trust that the neural net is right and agree with it more and more. Guilty as charged, it costs us so much time in our research to find out if the thing that is obvisouly correctly predicted is learned and not memorized or if the net has even learned what we think it has learned or if there is something else in the data that coincidentally produces the same prediction on this particular set of data but will predict the opposite on some theoretically possible other set of data.

tl;dr: You can never hope to "blend in" when you behave like others because of the advances in graph theory, linear algebra, "probably approximately correct"-theory and the false sense that your intuition has any significance.
No. 6433
I live in a country where you can get caught by police for silently standing in park. These things don't really bother me.
But as to my opinion
>I was wondering, do you notice yourself engaging in any behaviours as a response to the knowledge that you're potentially being watched or that certain things may trigger an algorithm? Perhaps you're about to order large quantities of fertiliser but then remember you don't want a visit from the police
Guess what. But in reality this leads to "kitchen talks" where people shit on oppressors more than they even deserve.
There is a thing which authoritarian government get and those scientists don't. Opposition lies even more than propaganda, because they are obsessed with their fight. The more you make it personal and escalate, the more inadequate answer you get. Give people places where they can be free and shittalk on you, that's the best way to pacify society. Escalate if you want get rid from something. Now do these things constantly and you get a working totalitarian regime.
There are definitely some common behaviour changes. Like it's hard to get "kitchen talk" or hints if you are from USA or europe.
No. 6473
> get caught by police for silently standing in park
Explain? I do too by the way. It's considered suspicious behavior to just be standing around. At the very least you'll get arrested for loitering.
I found that while trying to look for specific cases (being arrested literally just for standing around is so common it's not even newsworthy http://northcountrynow.com/news/man-charged-loitering-after-found-passed-out-bench-outside-potsdam-business-0240515 usually it only becomes newsworthy when it becomes made about race https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/starbucks-manager-defends-decision-call-cops-54550722) but I can confirm that ACD/ACOD charges are flagrantly abused as a way for innocent people to just grab the plea deal and get something on their record rather than to bother going to trial. The reason for this isn't even necessarily fear of conviction of anything as that article suggests, but rather because most people have shit to do and a trial disrupts their lives to no recompense regardless of innocence and can quite easily get you fired.
No. 6475
>I was wondering, do you notice yourself engaging in any behaviours as a response to the knowledge that you're potentially being watched or that certain things may trigger an algorithm?
I try to minimise my use of Google.
They will try to shape your mind the way you'd notice least, because they know your behaviour. That's what "personal experience" about.
We are living it NOW.
No. 6476
Or how about this story
The main problem I have is with foreigners and Americans alike buying into our propaganda. They do this partly because American propaganda masquerades as being not propaganda, they call it here "marketing" and "PR" or gets passed as corporate news (the news isn't liberal it is slightly right wing and corporatist btw). So I think people don't realize the degree to which all day every day you are absolutely bombarded by propaganda. And then foreigners genuinely believe in the propaganda and internalize it, and make it sound like all their countries are unfree shitholes (even if this is true) which is worse when they act like they internalized the message how America is free. This is the kind of shit that happens here every day and frankly what we'd need in America is a violent revolution except I am positive the bad guys would probably win and make it even more dystopian. I don't know what you mean by "arrested for standing in a park" but I actually know someone (a girl btw) who was body slammed for "trespassing" in Central Park. When she came back from NYC her whole side was bruised. This is what our faggot cops are sincerely like. When someone gets arrested for going to work, it is not a national scandal. Often it isn't even reported on the news and you'd only find out about these things reading police blotters. You foreigners just hear about it when it finally escalates to the point that like a child or unarmed man gets murdered in broad daylight.
No. 6479 Kontra
I don't know but I think american freedum is treated as meme I'd say. Everybody knows you are on your way to some technocratic dystopia. Riding a mustang on route 66 and having the choice between 50 fast food joints is just mentioned in a jokingly manner.
I know I have more freedom getting on the autobahn and I won't get shot for not opening the door to some authoritarian police officer
No. 6486
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maybe only those foreigners actually visiting your country. it's kind of a meme:
>the land of the free with - by far - the highest incarnation rate per capita.
with legal slavery (prisoners are not included in your "no slavery" bill; plus privatized prisons. honestly, why privatized prisons with legal slavery? who thought that would be a good idea?)
and nearly no worker rights; no real health care; more empty houses as homeless people(while homelessness is a serious problem) and, and, and...
No. 6512
There is a law against mass demonstrations. You can't met more than 4 friends simultaneously. And in 2010 people were randomly caught from streets for that.
Anyway why do you care about google? Government and your mobile operators track your phone, even when you switch it off. There is a database for every your move. But they can't use it against you in court. Still they will call you if they need a witness statement. This data isn't protected by any laws, people just don't care about it.
Totalitarian states often portrayed in a wrong way in your media. I assume they want to have ability to oppress without being connected to totalitarian paradigma.
No. 6521
>Anyway why do you care about google?
Because it's not government, but Google pushes ads for me.
But Google collaborates with US government, so he can fear Google as well.
No. 6522
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I don't fear repression in any way from my national government based on what I've done online. Whilst Portuguese law isn't as freedom of speech friendly as I would like it to be*, I am confident in the mix of basic fundamental freedoms placed into law, the lax enforcement of existing laws and governmental inability to utilize all means to its disposal to enforce laws.

In practice, Portugal has some fairly strict restrictions on some sorts of speech. Most notably "offending the honor" of people being illegal, even dead people. Oh, and that it's illegal to "criticize foreign symbols" (e.g. flags), but I will rather make my stand and enjoy my God-given freedom to criticize the Lithuanian flag than live like a slave to the Baltic tyranny. It's funny how in spite of these restrictions, it is constitutionally protected to be a fascist. However, organizing fascist groups is illegal Not that I give a shit :DDD t. liberashka

On a serious note, my only worry is the sharing of my personal data to corporations, particularly insurance companies.
t. interested in drugs
No. 6524
Honestly the best thing to do probably is to just use different services from competing power blocs especially since if you're in the West for example all your shit is getting shared between NATO countries anyway. Solution? Westerners use Yandex, Russians use some Western local service (although I personally wouldn't advise anybody use google for any reason regardless of where they are).
No. 6528
Or: Use as few services as possible and if you need something see if there is something that protects you as much as possible.

duckduckgo might not track you, but when using it you are still sending queries through an insufficiently protected network (TLS1.2 is not capable of protecting you against state actors). But if you use the hidden service of duckduckgo, you actually have a chance of not being tracked by anyone. And to make it more comfortable, the tor browser already comes with DDGs hidden service configured as search engine.

That's only one example, of course, and you won't find good solutions for everything you want to do. But you can still reduce the footprint significantly with a bit of effort.
No. 6699
> state actors
> big corps

What is the difference?
No. 6706
In this case the difference is that big corps (even of the caliber such as Google or MS) can not issue NSLs to a certificate authority to silently hand out their private keys/certs. But the FBI and NSA can.
No. 9060
>I've certainly noticed that I stop myself at times from asking certain questions of google and instead rephrase the request.
Lmao, I just fire up tor and ask away. I think it's all bullshit anyway, they will always rely on informants of some form.
No. 9215
What's the hidden service of duck duck go?
No. 9298

It's a honeypot though, the DDG creators are mossad agents. Just use startpage.
No. 9302
I don't think you even know what "honeypot" even means
>mossad agents
Massive proofs required because you're full of shit. Let me guess, you're convinced your stormtard posting is being heavily monitored by ZOG.
No. 9360
Same shit with cloudflare. Also note the jew name and the US jurisdiction.
No. 9367
Your proofs are literally linking to cripplechan first of all which might as well be linking directly to /pol/. You even bothered with
>Also note the jew name
>and the US jurisdiction.
You know that KC was based in the US too, right? US HOSTING MUCH SUSPICION KC CONFIRMED TOOL OF ZOG

And your very own link the first fucking thing it says is
>We recommend that you don't use DuckDuckGo if you seek a search engine that values your privacy. There's no confirmed proof that DuckDuckGo is violating your privacy, but there are some very suspicious things,
> There's no confirmed proof
Your very own citation directly admits having zero proofs.

Please re-refer to >>9302
you idiotic poltard
No. 9368 Kontra
Oh and btw Cloudflare is a different matter because it's actually routing all traffic through it making it at practically the backbone level of potential surveillance, which I'm also sure they do to try and trace DoS attacks.
No. 9693
Any alternatives to cloudflare?
No. 9696
No no see that's the thing, all traffic is routed through it now which is why people suspected it's also serving as some kind of NSA/FBI tap as part of their cyber division. Others take a different point of view


I am just suspicious of anything where all traffic gets sent through it. Trying to keep all the shit like google-analytics disabled is also a pain in the ass but the real problem with general security isn't even about you, but the fact your security is only as strong as the weakest link. The easiest thing to do is just be unnoticed, because the fact remains this is an absurd amount of data.