/int/ – No shittings during wörktime
„There is no place like home“

Currently at Radio Ernstiwan:

Hail Odin! by Christenklatscher666


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No. 63812
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Do you love your country, Ernst? Are you glad you were born were you did? Do you like your fellow citizens?
Are there 'national traits' of culture and civil society that you personally enjoy? Are there things you despise about your own people?
No. 63816
"Love" is a rather strong word. I basically don't love anyone or anything beyond my direct relatives and my gf.
But I am certainly grateful for being born and raised in Germany instead of any american, african or asian country.

What I like about Germany is the cuisine and the land. There are some nice spots here.

I don't like most people, because the one thing that makes Germany so potentially successful is also its biggest weakness:
The people here are sheeple. They do what they are told (by a superior), which can lead to a highly effective workforce, BUT:
Germans are, at their core, highly authoritarian, independently from creed, political affiliation or anything else.
The only thing that separates a person throwing a stone into a jewish shopwindow and a person standing in a train station cheering for refugees is who currently leads the country.
If tomorrow the fourth Reich were to be declared, with the media focusing on the bad deeds of the left instead of the right, the people who are now the most refugee welcoming "civil courage" do-gooders would be the first ones to raise the arm again, because they are not able to think, they are literal NPCs.
Anyone who says "oh yeah I would have totally been in the resistance" talks bullshit because exactly those people they have never encountered ANY kind of resistance in their lives ever. Being against nazis in 2021 is about as brave as being against jews in 1933.
Also, germans are really jealous. They can't be happy if their neighbor is happy because he has something better.

Objectively there isn't much I like about living in Germany, but the region I come from is still Heimat and that's a feeling that goes much deeper than me complaining about the country. It's analogous to loving my family even though I don't always get along with them, just a few levels higher up, so to say.
No. 63817
No. 63819 Kontra
Like the other German, I can think of myself as blessed being born in a country on this planet earth and into a family that knows the word scarcity only from their grandparent's war tellings. Germany is not the only country that can offer this though.

Otherwise, I think national identities and characters or other terminology is made up bs. Surely culture(s) exists but it is more refined and differential than any talk about nations and identity can fathom. So surely, I can see tendencies and behavior (certain rituals, even in day-to-day living) I don't see outside of Germany in that specific case. But I hesitate since I will surely find enough people who will tell the opposite, for example, the efficient workforce is often called into question. You will find relaxed Italians or Brits and then you have relaxed Germans, but will find Italians or Brits that would make "good Germans". And then again, I also deem all of this historically contingent which might be obscured by talking about traits.

Generally, people here seem more encapsulated and not open, especially towards foreigners. On the other hand, I see people having a short chat often enough for example. Just today I has a quick chat with the mailwoman. The lack of outgoingness which is not a thing specific to Germans though can be a good thing. I can go unbothered.

I could imagine that this could be adjusted to many other countries, though their history has no Hitler and Wilhelm. Most people are sheeple, unsurprisingly most people think they know best, even if they follow their leader. I mean anybody could construct a narrative that the spirit of the Kaiserreich and national socialism is deeply engrained in the German soul, and it has been. Look at populism in France, Italy and Britain and this seems not so special. When the time is ripe, any nation can turn authoritarian.
No. 63823
My unrepresentative environment are the best people on Earth, very happy to know them. Gopnics are awful. Bydlos are pathetic. I have no idea what average Russians are closer to, so I can't say anything about them.
Russia as a place to live in... Well, it's better than Africa for example. Or better than Russia 50 years ago. I appreciate this. On the other hand it's worse than Russia 10 years ago. So while other "developing countries" are actually developing faster than 1-st world btw and have hope for their future, Russia is degrading both socially and economically.
No. 63825
I think I’m blessed to be born on a place that has not known war on its soil for nearly two centuries. And I’ll say it’s hard to struggle with most if any aspects of life here.

Yes I love my country in the sense that I love its political institutions and feel no disdain towards the state. I’m proud of the unique rights I’m given and try to use them consciously. But Switzerland has no history of presenting itself as a nation, I thus don’t love my country in the sense a Frog would.

I like my fellow citizens but also those who have non-citizens and hardly had a bad social experience with a stranger. But it’s not possible to appreciate the Swiss as a people, we are divided in all possible ways and non-citizens represent one third of the population. The identity we would share the most as a people is the fact that we share a state and some kind of pride in its efficiency, a strong landscape and the same supermarkets throughout the country which make us consume broadly the same day to day products.
No. 63826
I hate internet for showing me how civilized people live.
No. 63831
There are things I love, and things I hate, but on balance kinda glad I spawned in the US. What can I say about the citizens? While the caricature of Americans portrayed in mass media is atrocious- lazy, ignorant, bigoted, celebrity worshipping, loud and opinionated- these behaviors don't manifest in my daily encounters. Think this is due to one other cultural trait - Americans are polite. We may be complete d*cks in private, and collectively pose a threat to civilization everywhere, but for the most part that is concealed beneath a pleasant veneer. Two exceptions to this- the first is mass gatherings. Get enough people together and we will riot. Second is driving. On the road most of us are complete a**holes, hitting the horn and screaming over the smallest offense.

Except for that omnipresent simmering anger, I enjoy the driving culture. To get most places you either need a car or mass transit. It's inefficient, expensive, and environmentally devastating, but getting behind the wheel - that autonomy and anonymity- is the fulfillment of the Freedom® promised by our forefathers. Sure, 99% of the time driving is just commuting or running errands rather than racing the winding seaside highways commonly seen in car ads, but even that is honestly fun. Except for road construction. Orange cones and chopped up asphalt suck.

You know that myth of economic mobility? That anyone can become rich if they work hard enough? In the American mind that mutates into a rabid individualism- every man for himself, get yours and don't look back. I despise that, and how we celebrate the ever-increasing ceiling of wealth rather than viewing it as a symptom of a broken economic system, where labor is given just enough to survive and forming a union to claim a share of that wealth is seen as un-American.
No. 63840
Alright, with a bit of beer cooling down my red-hot head from today's work thinking, let me tell you exactly about your (and my) country:

Certainly Germany is not the only country to offer this, but I honestly can't think of many other countries I would rather be born in (provided I would also be born to the lower middle class). Denmark, Switzerland, maybe New Zealand? Anything else I wouldn't consider desirable.

I also think national identities are necessary and to a certain extent important. What would there be without nations? Countless small tribes, as it was before. Remember the inception of Germany, we already ARE a Vielvölkerstaat. I personally find it pretty cool that we are able to unify bavarian incest farmers and frisian incest fishers under one common culture.

But I agree on the "encapsulated" thing. In fact I remember an anecdote from when I was still a student and worked with a girl from I think Colombia or Ecuador, who told me how open I am for a german, but on the other hand, in my experience spaniards and latinos are already so open and in your face that it's hard not to reciprocate that (unlike e.g. all kinds of muslims from Egypt to Pakistan). Although I hate when I am at the store and the dumb cunt of cashier is having a dumb cunt chat with the other dumb cunt while the queue is getting longer and longer. There's always a right place and a right time.

Last, I think we should make it clear though, that for example French nationalism is vastly different from ours. Being french is a thing of merit. If you prove worthy, you are french (e.g. by serving in the Legion). Another anecdote: Peste Noire had an indian bassist on their first album. They are considered NSBM, although their lead Famine is clearly a french nationalist, but he himself said in an interview that he sees no problem having a "foreigner" in the band, because he's just that good. Such a thing would never fly in Germany. Being german is determined by blood. A child of two immigrants can never be a german, except maybe after a few generations and enough assimilation. So there's certainly a difference.
Also, again the french, they are more likely to actually demonstrate, hell it's a national pastime. In Germany there could never be a revolution because you'd have to step on the lawn first.

Of course I am being rather polemic and colorful here, but I find it too simplifying to just equate that special german sentiment of nation and "Volk" to what others have. I mean even the word "Heimat", that's to my knowledge not something that even exists in other languages.

And this directly influences how "authoritarian" countries could be. Sure, the people can be influenced by propaganda (in fact I just read an article on WW1 propaganda), but in Germany you don't need much of that. You just tell the people to do something and while they might bitch and moan (at home or at the Stammtisch), they will do it. Remember that the jews sewed the stars on their clothes themselves, because they were told to. They were good germans, after all.
The same wouldn't work like that in other countries. In France they would just refuse to and in Britain probably the majority of people.
No. 63844
> I also think national identities are necessary and to a certain extent important. What would there be without nations?
Switzerland. Nationalism is nearly inexistant and has a functional state.
No. 63847 Kontra
Not nationalism. Nations, as in the opposite of "no borders, no nations".
No. 63848 Kontra
Then your choice of words is confusing and to me it also seems a thin line. A Nation as a functional institution is a state and I deem that useful, I have nothing against administering masses of people per se. An identity, a sort of culture to glue people together and overpaint the differences is harmful and that is what nationalism is about though. It creates we (essential entity) vs. the others. I like the idea of the functional perspective making people hold together and not some story of origin to create a common identity (and enemies while doing so) even though this is not the case. Nationalism is based on the rhetorics of immunology. Today we have a mix of both and the degree of nationalism varies quite a bit.
No. 63851 Kontra
>An identity, a sort of culture to glue people together and overpaint the differences is harmful and that is what nationalism is about though. It creates we (essential entity) vs. the others.
You are conflating things here.
I can consider myself a german without thinking less of e.g. the polish or belgians.
It's like with sports teams:
A good sportsman will still stick to his team, but nonetheless wish the other team best.
A bad sportsman will hate the other team no matter what.
In both cases we have sports teams, but only one is harmful. Though I don't understand why glueing people together and overpainting differences is supposed to be harmful. Because it kills local customs or what?
No. 63853 Kontra
The question would be if a good sportsman does not turn easily into a bad one.

>Though I don't understand why glueing people together and overpainting differences is supposed to be harmful.

Because glossing over differences will backfire and be shattered eventually, you cannot gloss as much as differences will come through. While this seems a good thing, there is no need to let people go through the phase of thinking the populace is actually united and homogenous. When people these days on Corona demonstrations use the GDR protest phrase " Wir sind das Volk" it should be clear that this is a minority that thinks there is a silent and congruent majority (a preferred trope of German conservatives, see E. Nöelle-Neumann) while there are actually vast difference and no Volk, a complex differentiated society and the idea of some united mass. And stressing differences don't mean people cannot come together and understand each other.
No. 63854 Kontra
The sports team does not dissolve the we vs. the others logic, it still creates the homgenic identity that has the potential to foster immunologic imaginations.
No. 63855
Ah, I see what you mean. Although wouldn't that mean that global balkanization would be preferrable to global homogenization? So instead of abandoning all nations we would just regress back into smaller entities?

And funny enough, that GDR stuff is in fact a good counter-example, because nobody ever tried to paint over differences or glue people together. Kohl just declared one day that Germany was unified again, but as the saying goes, the "Mauer in den Köpfen" still exists. Wessi vs. Ossi has never not been a thing.
The way my mom talks about easterners is kinda hilarious, because she talks about them like they probably talk about foreigners - to my mom, the easterner is still a foreigner. They are all stupid, lazy and having lived in a dictatorship for so long has made them even dumber, something along those lines.
And that is vastly different than e.g. Baden vs. Württemberg or even someone from Munich vs. someone from Hamburg.

Why do you keep using that immunology analogy? Immunology is an important field and having a healthy immune system is a good thing.
No. 63857
1,4 MB, 299 × 299, 0:05
Love my country? Fuck no. Burn it all down and let's not start again. Workers of the World Unite. My homeland hits though.

I dunno about traits tbh. I'm educated white trash in a country with a proper Anglo style Class Based Society™. I guess civilised people don't know the pleasure of bringing an esky (cooler? icebox?) full of beers to a restaurant, which is a thing where I'm originally from in NSW.
No. 63858
I love Bavaria but I hate everything the GmbH stands for. I feel indifferent towards the people who (allegedly) speak the same language as me but are so foreign in every other apsect. I'm more connected to Austrians than Germans and if I had to pick a side it'd surely be my brethren downstream of the Danube.
No. 63860 Kontra
Obviously the existence of the Hungarian state is central to my national identity, and because of my linguistic identity and status it's important to me that it continues to exists for ever and for ever.

But also, just like every single person living in this country, I have a perfectly drawn up list of who exactly needs to be killed and eliminated to "set things straight" in this "shithole", so just because I feel the need to love the country that doesn't mean that inside the country I'm not a tribalistic barbarian who's against other tribalistic retards who also want to do the same to me along political, cultural and racial lines.

It's a very complex topic actually. Not the killing part, but rather this love-hate relationship a lot of people seem to have with the nationality. How it's perceived as both the biggest of gifts and the biggest of curses. Mainly coming down to linguistic isolation.
It's unbelievable.
No. 63864
>Do you love your country, Ernst?
Germany. No.
No. 63866 Kontra
Nah I feel bad about this post and shouldn't shitpost
No. 63871
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Despite witnessing the decline perhaps death of this very country in real time, I'm still glad I was born in the United States of America. There isn't another place on Earth I would rather be living right now; not any Commonwealth nation, not Ireland, not France, not Pakistan nor any other nation I could imagine.

As despondent and dispossessed as I might feel at times, America is one of the few places on Earth where any man from any creed can carve out a space for himself and those close to him. Being able to speak your mind no matter how controversial the idea is also something uniquely American, although I despair it's becoming increasingly rare as people simply close their minds more and more. For most people, even those claim to care about free speech care only for their free speech. What they want is consistency and convenience, and they're quick to drop any pretenses towards open-mindedness the minute that demand for convenience and consistency is upset. Still, America is one of the few places a man can be free. I can only hope to whatever God there may be that stays the case, although my pessimism grows by the day.

Other things I like in no particular order: being able to drive anywhere, clean drinking water, access to good food, lots of space, ability to live independently or alone, getting things whenever and wherever I want, et cetera. Despite having an Arabic name and being raised Muslim before coming to terms with my own spiritual agnosticism, I can still live here with relatively few issues. And yeah, goddamn, I love being <s>half-</s>White

My father had a deep appreciation for America, especially its founding principles which were thoroughly alien to his fellow Pakistanis. Ralph Waldo Emerson and Benjamin Franklin were two of my father's personal heroes until his death. Demographically, he preferred Germans to Americans, but he ultimately chose to live in America both on account of his first love and because life, liberty and the pursuit of property held much stronger appeal. He never told me much about the American Dream nor did he make that a central part of his identity, but he truly made his home here once he established himself. Everything from his mannerisms to his attitude towards life, my father's gut truly was American.

>Last, I think we should make it clear though, that for example French nationalism is vastly different from ours. Being french is a thing of merit. If you prove worthy, you are french (e.g. by serving in the Legion). Another anecdote: Peste Noire had an indian bassist on their first album. They are considered NSBM, although their lead Famine is clearly a french nationalist, but he himself said in an interview that he sees no problem having a "foreigner" in the band, because he's just that good. Such a thing would never fly in Germany. Being german is determined by blood. A child of two immigrants can never be a german, except maybe after a few generations and enough assimilation. So there's certainly a difference.

Don't forget France's RAC scene had Iranian, Arab and even Cambodian skinheads.

That's something I always found curious about the French; must have something to do with Roman Catholicism as opposed to Protestantism. I doubt any such thing could be adequately replicated here, but France has always been much more civic-minded towards the idea of what makes a Frenchman. Even Jean-Marie Le Pen always had a much more nuanced attitude than any other Nationalist from any other country. It doesn't matter what race you are. As long as you uphold French values, speak French and do everything you can to make France a better country, then you are French.
No. 63872 Kontra
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No. 63873 Kontra
One thing I forgot to mention: Hawaii :DDDDDDD. I often forget I have the rare privilege of having been there [/spoiler]30 times[/spoiler]. Even excluding Alaska and Hawaii, America is such a geographically varied place which makes for many great vacation opportunities. Before I die, I want to visit every single state at least once and hopefully spend a week in each state. A tall order which I'll likely never accomplish, but a man can dream.

How do Hungarians feel about their past? How do they relate to their neighbors? I was of the understanding that Hungarians are quite proud of their identity and thus fiercely protective.
No. 63875
But athletes frequency change teams, and in some sports, usually there's no direct relation between which geographic area the team represents, and the geographic origins of a particular athlete.

I think cultural identities are fine. I think governing bodies are fine.
Conflating cultural identities with a particular governing body is a pure ideological spook and a fairly recent invention.

Possibly a means of population control, to make the population feel like their rulers are "their" rulers, if you know what I mean.
No. 63877 Kontra
>Although wouldn't that mean that global balkanization would be preferrable to global homogenization?

I sense that behind this is a thinking I don't support, differences don't mean everybody should get its ethnohomogenic island if that is what you want to point at. The relationship of difference and identity is not about solving for one side of these.

>GDR stuff is in fact a good counter-example, because nobody ever tried to paint over differences or glue people together. Kohl just declared one day that Germany was unified again, but as the saying goes, the "Mauer in den Köpfen" still exists. Wessi vs. Ossi has never not been a thing.

You should look at the past discourses (patterns of statements to be more precise about this term) and I can guarantee you that the differences were painted over in a drunken nationalism that is the Wiedervereinigung, I mean the word Vereinigung alone indicates a becoming whole again, a lost unity is restored. But yeah, the rhetorics don't hold up to what is the reality.

>Why do you keep using that immunology analogy? Immunology is an important field and having a healthy immune system is a good thing.

I don't use that analogy, I said people use this analogy to think the nation as container, an organism. But this biologizing is questionable when talking about a human made functional institution.

There was no nationalism before the 18th. century, maybe even later, so yeah. To make just on thesis: nationalism is an ideology to cement the capitalist state culturally.
No. 63881 Kontra
Had to delete because of horrible typos and not kontra'ing

>don't mean everybody should get its ethnohomogenic island if that is what you want to point at.
No I wasn't. I was more alluding to regressing back to a patchwork of small states as e.g. the "Deutscher Bund", although that was already a big step towards the big blob. Like the hansa cities going back to doing their thing alone, Bavaria splitting from Franconia, Ostwestfalen declaring independency, etc., but I hope you realized I wasn't being entirely serious.
That said, I don't see anything inherently wrong with having an ethnically homogeneous community. I wouldn't force it, but I also wouldn't propagate blanda upp.
Of course if you are strict about it, this can, especially in small communities, lead to cosanguinity pretty quickly, like in Iceland, although in their case it's more a geographical problem than any strict immigration laws whatsoever. A few years ago they even started a service where you could find out how closely related you are to someone, in order to not bang too close to home. And I think as a qualified immigrant you should have it pretty easy, as they are desperate to freshen up their gene pool, so why do you not have icelandic gf yet?
Fun fact: I am one of the very few non-(Zugezogene, no idea what it is in english) of my home village who isn't related to half the village like everyone else, because my dad's parents were immigrants. Also, the girl from the other side of the road recently got a baby. The father is her cousin :--DDDDDDDD

Also, I think we are often confusing "ethnically" and "culturally", because while an ethnically diverse, but culturally homogeneous community can thrive, I still have to see a single example of multiculturalism actually working, because coming back to that overpainting thing, as we have established, it doesn't work entirely. Cultures can only exist next to each other, not muddled together, because someone will always have to compromise and economize. Might also be a personal thing, because for example I am not fit for living in shared flats. Been there, done that, it's not for me. I like to do my own thing in my own place.

Regarding the Wiedervereinigung, well, yeah, that was just a word. It had been an explicit goal (of West Germany) ever since the war was over. Sometimes when I visit my mom and she watches one of the Ostalgie documentaries I get a slight colonialism vibe. The goal was not to reunite, but to reclaim clay.

As for the rise of nationalism, it also kinda coincides with the rise of republicanism and democracy, doesn't it? I mean, it's perfectly logical. When you don't pledge allegiance to a king anymore, you need to pledge allegiance to the flag because while maybe a single person you can solely pledge allegiance to yourself, it doesn't work for the social animal called human in general. Conversely, when people have the opportunity to going back pledging allegiance to a king or strong leader, they will happily do so. Granted, there is still Great Britain, but they are silly people anyway, with having invented capitalism and still affording a monarchy.
No. 63882
Not him, but I got home from work pissed off about various things for various reasonsat one point I cut shopping short thinking why the fuck should I even care with these ridiculous people and shartposted about Germany. I realized I'd normally [-] this thread and hid it because we have at least one sincerely good German poster.

You, however, post like an American in all the worst caricature ways and make me realize this morning why I made that post to begin with.Deleted post basically dedicated to shitting on German Americans. I think I partly deleted it because I also was only half joking. What the Germans above said is right and half the reason America makes certain germs so assblasted merely muttering our name is because of that covetousness and envy. It's because we as a allegedly free and fair nation achieved more in a company centuries than Germany ever did in its whole existence. There is strong authoritarian and money grubbing tendencies to the German character and that very caricature is largely derived from 14/88's German Americans.
No. 63885
Funny thing to think about regarding the whole "muh heritage" thing, is that the history of europe (and most of the world tbh) was the history of its aristocracy, which was just one big family sprawling across most of the geographic area, and the history of its church, which was another international organization sprawling the continent.

So the "muh heritage" stuff doesn't make sense to me unless you actually descend from aristocracy.
No. 63887 Kontra
Cultural heritage conceptualized as origin is a spook because it reduced thousands of streams flowing into one canal, it's basically lying to yourself because the truth shatters little European enlightenment egos :DDD
No. 63888
>nationalism is an ideology to cement the capitalist state culturally
Primarily it does so juristically by granting certain property rights for every citizen, which is of course a bourgeoise scam scince the starting point for every citizen was never egalitarian in the first place. Culturally it feeds this narrative e. g. American dream, dish washer to millionaire and all that stuff.
No. 63889
>So the "muh heritage" stuff doesn't make sense to me unless you actually descend from aristocracy.
A different case can be made, that because indeed both the clergy and the nobility saw themselves as part of a supranational class, the role of local identity would be more present in the peasantry.
No. 63890
>There was no nationalism before the 18th. century, maybe even later, so yeah.
This is an oft-repeated line but also complete horseshit. I would recommend Guy Hermet's History of Nations and Nationalism in Europe. National and proto-national identities grew in different times, in different regions. There was a sense of an Iberian identity during the reconquista and even in our national epic it references that the protagonist of this story is 'the Portuguese people'. Different events caused the rise of a national identity in opposition to some 'other'. Usually wars.
No. 63895
This is rather a problem of termini than of content. What we contemporary have learned to associate with nation, nation state, nationalism etc. in large amounts dates back only a few hundred years. Obviously there has been what you have called "proto-national identities" and the like before that era in time but with less "refined" characteristics. I don't think this is a contradiction.
No. 63905
That's somewhat true, but it's not really the same as the concept off nation state is it.

Personally, I think the one thing varg virkenes is right about, is that authentic identity is only found in ooga booga familial tribes.

Now, whether you want to worship pebbles and rocks and cow shit and such, is another matter entirely.
No. 63910
>That's somewhat true, but it's not really the same as the concept off nation state is it.
It depends on the nation state in question. I think nationalism is older than the modern state, the identity of the local yokels being the foundation of the nationalist identity. Sometimes artificially by a centralizing polity, drawing customs of various groups and attempting to merge them into national image. In others, the formation of an identity grows more naturally and finds its roots not in a 19th century project but from this yokel sense of identity in opposition to the other people on the other side of the riber.
>What we contemporary have learned to associate with nation, nation state, nationalism etc. in large amounts dates back only a few hundred years.
I think the division is arbitrary. I think it's due to the presupposition that nationalism must be tied to a broader civic project. And I think it is repeated often because of this urge to portray nationalism as "an ideology to cement the capitalist state culturally".
No. 63941
The brick is right yet again. Nationalism is a divide and rule or psyop tactic of all the wealthy transnational elites of ruling, controlling, and manipulating a bunch of dumb fucking bydlo into killing each other and dispossession of treasures. I've idly thought a lot about how much it completely disgusts me, these generals and aristocrats sitting around for tea, brandy, and sweets doing diplomacy while their alleged men are dying in screaming agony on the battlefield which they themselves aren't part of the fighting. It makes me want to straight up murder them horribly. But anyway, the thing is that scene really exemplifies the truth of the matter as it always has been, which is that men of highest rank and station have more in commom with others of their ilk, and that it has always been a global ruling class that doesn't even humour these preposterous bydlo tribal ideas.

For you your tribe is the fucking European aristocracy, not these French or English peasants. Who gibes a fuck about them? You then marry your daughter off to some French noble and find some Spanish princess to marry off your sons, and the Jews of Europe were smart enough to have figured out this game and got in on it thus cementing themselves as such a pillar of the European powerbase that no one would dare bring up Merovingians and Rockefellers without also saying the name "Rotschild." In fact the very name is "red shield" because he gave his sons European heraldry, and all the stupid fucks of today prattle on about their bydlo nationalism and muh globalism without realizing this system is effectively a higher tech, more legally obtuse extrapolation of the literal same system now. All those people like Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Musk have it figured out to where they're building their own pyramids called companies. They aren't even one race let alone one country and they all deal with each other and not us, and yes that includes you if you're upper middle class or even lower upper class.

Nationalism is and always has been a spook. The purest form of anything resembling nationalism is just tribal city states, which in turn entered into alliances with each other. Modern nations don't even look like each other oftentimes. A German from one area barely even looks like the same people as Germans from elsewhere.

Take this site for example. Why am I talking to some guy in fucking Kazakhstan on my Saturday morning off than hanging out with the other Americans? Because they don't even share my interests. Now think of it if you had real money and power, and look at it as "yes but the Spanish princess shares my interests" in the national interests sense of the word. They advance the national interest only in the sense that the advancement of their own interests is congruent with that, with particularly backwards nations just being short sighted about advancing short term personal interest over long term national onesthis arguably is something we've been doing since Reagan too.

Fact is, you can immediately tell what low social status a person is by how tribalistic they are in that bydlo national sense, because they haven't got anything and swallowed the bs marketing whole. These are the people that are needed to go on foreign adventures looting and murdering people to make nonconsensual property alterations overseas. Do you really think I'm stupid enough to come back missing a leg, psychologically messed up and addicted to pain pills, and I'm going to be happy with a cheap piece of metal and fabric stuck in my chest? Fuck no, where is my share of the loot, where are my business contracts, where is my social leveraging using that cheap medal. Maybe if you're some poor farm boy then it's good enough to publicly harangue people about stolen valor because let's face it, you weren't getting to step on top of someone else any other way, but it's not for me.

If you're smart and not bydlo you'll have already realized all that actually matters is the supranational entity, just like the empire matters and nobody fucking cares about which podunk city state you hailed from. It ultimately does not matter if you're a British national who ruins my country, because you're part of that same transnational class as the people owning and ruling everything here, just like it always has been in European or any other history. It's why the queen of Britain right now is ethnically German.
No. 63949
>but from this yokel sense of identity in opposition to the other people on the other side of the riber
That's local patriotism though, the translation of local patriotism to actual national patriotism requires that some kind of movement demands or founds a conceptualized nation in distinction to some "other" thing which is not seen as part of the nation. Obviously the first steps of this process happen "naturally" so to speak over the course of history but the rise of let's call it modern nationalism was when this became a conscious thing to do.
No. 63956
>How do Hungarians feel about their past?
That depends heavily on who you ask.
We're in a process of re-canonisation currently and there's serious conflict among academics, historians, politicians and intellectuals on how to interpret our past, from Saint Stephen to Horthy and Kádár.

(But this is often seen as a continuation of the "Urbanite-Ruralite" conflict of the late 19th century.)
Basically the Urbanite-Liberal (The Hungarian "Left") wants to be wholly assimilated into Europe and the European idea, Europe can do no wrong, Europe as an abstract concept is the ultimate good, and they will commit the most heinous economic crimes like privatisation, embezzling and sending funds out to German megacorps in the name of "Europeanism" along the neoliberal/bioleninist lines of thought.
If you want to be a "Troo-intellectual" you have to be an Urbanite-Liberal because otherwise they'll deny you position, fame and will even try to discredit you through their media. They're an awfully backhanded, irritating bunch if you ask me when it comes to their goals, but more importantly, their style. They hold that they're the only ones allowed to criticise anything, or to make fun of anything.
Though their influence on the media and academia has diminished considerably since Orbán took power again.

The Ruralite-Conservatives (The Hungarian "Right") are partial to "Europeanism" but through "Hungarian Characteristics" and place the continued political independence of the Hungarian state as the centre for their ideas.
Under Orbán they managed to chastise the hardcore rightists and neo-Hungarists (while assimilating some elements naturally, but toning them down, obviously) and consolidated themselves into a big-tent-rightist party that obliterated everything socially right to the Socialist Party.
They're moralising, having "God, Homeland, Family" as their slogan, and some of them are quite the anti-semites if you let them talk long enough, but ultimately they're not very well coordinated and often have limited foreign connections and backing. (Unlike the Urbanites who have endless cash-supplies from NGOs and the west to continue their political struggle against the Ruralites.)
Regards to history, the favour portraying it as a heroic struggle against foreign oppression (and surviving unjust oppression) and balancing national identity with progress, while the urbanites only use history and the imagery to discredit ideas of Hungarianism and force a culture of being ashamed down our throats.
The Ruralites also openly favour the Turkic/Turanic ethnogenesis theory in favour of the Finno-Ugric one. (Though they linguistically do not yet deny or suppress the latter one in schools, only opting to present the question as ambiguous.)
(Of course while the Ruralites uphold social-political independence, they cannot and do not want to uphold the economic independence of the nation, only going so far as to utilise local oligarchs as money-deposits for German money and foreign investment instead of completely selling out everything, which some see as some sort of long-con when it comes to the economics.)

As I see it, the Orbán-era so far saw a sort of rehabilitation of the Horthy-regime, alongside trying to both mould and tone down the nostalgia for the Kádár-system, instead opting to use Rákosi's crimes as a way to discredit socialism (and anything tangentially related to it) in the process.
The fact that the Socialist Party even today refuses to clearly repent for the crimes the party committed in the 1945-60s period against dissidents and rebels.

There's no centrist position, ultimately it all boils down to whether or not you believe in some superior, good and just European identity that is ultimately ought to supersede Hungarian identity in the long run (but strangely enough not Romanian, Slovakian or even the ""Romani""), or you believe there's a deathly struggle for the survival of Hungary's statehood and ultimately its nationhood. (Since our statehood is the ultimate expression of our nationhood.)
The writing down and retelling of past events only serves as munition for this, whether or not it's liberals quoting Saint Stephen that "A Monolingual state is weak and prone to failing" when they want to disingenuously discredit the idea of a nation state (since they only give a shit about Stephen when they quote him for this one mistranslated line) or when the rightists are touting the economic wonder Horthy's regime pulled off by even managing to survive Trianon.
No. 63958 Kontra
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btw I'm sorry you had to see this
No. 63960
Interdasting. Thanks for this because it gives so much insight into what's happening on the ground that's seldom reported in the media here.
No. 63964 Kontra
What exactly do you get out of this? Seriously, what are you trying to prove?
No. 63995
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There's an Amerishart who seems to have a lot of fun making threads over and over on 4kohl with screencaps or copy-pasta from EC

The more imageboards you frequent, the more you see how everything is recycled over and over again
No. 63996
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Every day there's like 3 threads on Kohlchan about EC now
No. 63998 Kontra
Imageboards are effectively the same old farts posting over and over with occasional new blood coming in to participate in whatever discussion may be at hand. I honestly doubt even vierkanker has half the traffic it used to claim considering that even the hobby boards are home to the same dull residents who waste their days discussing the same shit ad nauseum. I swear to God that even /mu/, which used to be extremely active between 2010-2013, now crawls to a much slower pace.

The curse of nu-KC is that not only is it increasingly filled with the absolute worst lowest common denominator, everything that made KC distinct gradually got lost with time. Perhaps it was dead by 2017, but the need to resuscitate the spirit that animated /int/ was still desperately needed. We used to have incredible conversations about world affairs while still maintaining an atmosphere where funposting and serious discussions could be successfully balanced. Even now, plenty of holdovers from Old KC capable of replying with thoughtful and insightful posts are active on nu-KC, and these attempts at importing the better portions of EC over there are to elicit responses from those people.

Without trying to be disrespectful to the more thoughtful members of this community, EC is plainly too stuffy and way too small. It's not that I need some retarded dopamine hit, but a wider range of responses and a bigger variety of opinions are something I seek from other communities. And yeah, having more Americans over there is a big plus.
No. 64008
Fascinating, simply fascinating. Every day I am convinced further that there is no lesser life form than an American.
No. 64009
Next step is if American commits mass shooting and adds link to Ernstchan in his manifest. This will surely attract new wonderful posters and pour new blood into EC.
No. 64010
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Maybe we won't find links, but a collection of various EC screencaps glued to his manifesto.
No. 64013
He can even sell places there for advertisements.
No. 64024
Why the fuck is somebody screenshotting my hazy shitposts? Moreover why are any of you even going there at this point?

My basic reply to even the concept or pretense of caring about nationalism on an /int/ community is retarded, because you're pretty much all of you spending hours a week or even day alone in your rooms chatting with people from all over the world because you prefer that to the company of your own countrymen. So in that regard, yes, nationalism on an international chan is retarded and fake posturing, and people only pretend to do so because we have flags as the only identifying features as opposed screen handles or anonymous etc. Likewise, that probably makes it easier to ultimately see that the rulers and captains of this world are in each other's company, and not in ours. Basically, nationalism is a spook and a psyop unless your nation is so completely artificial like ours is that it's literally got nothing at all to do with "nations" as in peoples, and is solely an ideological construct.
No. 64026 Kontra
I should have read this first before replying.

It comes down to a pearls before swine type of problem. While it's a noble idea, you just have to understand and accept that some of the people on there are lost causes. They will never make an insightful post because they're not mentally set up that way.

I dunno, I've been watching prison videos lately and see that stuff about the Vors and stuff like that. I'd think it preferable to uplift society as a whole like I want, but it's true that we're still pragmatists. I agree with this ome dude who keeps emphasizing that some people just belong in prison, but also can see how many people got set up to fall by an evil system, and maybe some of those people too are victims of the same evil. Maybe some of them do just need a different way of thinking, but how are you going to accomplish that through posting? I write literally one paragraph on 4kanker about a piece of hardware or opinion on a game, and even that is tl;dr, maybe some stale meme that was already stale when they stole it from us like 6 years ago, making the whole place effectively feel like a clone of reddit. Sure, maybe we could blame twitter for that, and maybe we really could blame some spooky shadowy agenda or just blind greed for twitter, but at the end of the day they are part of what makes that community. How do you as one man change all that? Maybe it could be possible to compulsively autist post textwalls like myself, and some others might engage with a thoughtful counterpoint, but I do see a difference in people these daysa lot of which I blame on abuse of technology, i.e. twitter and pocket NSA phones and one part is also the sort of people on there.

It is a lot like video gaming communities. Those people saying they play vidya often aren't us; there's too much vidya, too mainstream, too many genres, for them to all be like us. To me Bernd is as long gone as Anonymous. Any society cannot fully perpetuate itself without its people. A religion is the closest thing to that, and even then we see how far different branches and schisms eventually differ. Just look at the Italian mafia between the days of mustache Petes to what it is now. We were never a vacuum, and for a large variety of reasons it changed permanently along with the technology and the outer culture. The simple, sad fact of the matter is, 4kanker is now so mainstream that kids like us at say age 14 would now consider it the same way we'd have seen facebook if it existed then. The worst part in all this is I don't usually see not just the same hacker TOTSE types, but not even anybody with remotest interest in computers, and meanwhile everything is getting moved to locked down alleged "smart" phones. I see people like jayztwocents who as re definitely somehow tied to the original culture, but it's basically lame children and boomers over there now, and k*hl is probably a honeypot for pedos. I have no idea if 7 even still exists, and wonder how many suicides and overdoses happened along the way, in addition to people just growing up and moving on. Far as I see, what's left has nothing to do with any of us and was never real.
No. 64027 Kontra
>Moreover why are any of you even going there at this point?
Moreover, why are YOU even going there at this point, and even drawing attention to EC? Why can't americans not stop ruining everything?

>because you're pretty much all of you spending hours a week or even day alone in your rooms chatting with people from all over the world because you prefer that to the company of your own countrymen.
Wrong. We prefer the company of Ernsts over that of non-Ernsts. Is there really anyone here who would actually go outside and socialize more if they lived in another country?
No. 64040
I don't go to Kohlchan, actually I thought they had mostly forgotten we exist as well. Apparently not.
No. 64045 Kontra
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I do not go to k*hl. Someone else apparently screenshotted my and Hungary's posts here and posted it there, which is first time I heard of such things. So again I can ask, why are you even going there?

I also do not understand how you were so dense you missed my point entirely. Yes, as in we have fuckall to do with most everyone in our countries and whatever dumb VK memes, tiktok posting, celebrity and sport gossip bullshit or whatever such people do, and instead find more like minded or at least vaguely passable people to discuss things with than deal with our own. It's why lately I've come to believe non-ideological nationalism as a whole is a farce, and ideology bound nationalism is by definition a mirage. The simple fact of the matter is there's really no borders anymore than linguistic borders, much of which is due to technology, and as time goes on we're probably just going to start splitting up and fragmenting internally the whole world over. It will be a global village, just not in the sense naive idealistic people meant in early 90s, but more as barbaric shitshows and petty local dramas after another when people realize they have more in common culturally and mentally with say, some German, Australian, and American about I dunno masks or planting trees or some shit, than with their neighbour. Meanwhile their neighbor then will be sharing tiktok videos with like, an Iranian college student and some kid in Nairobi about contouring.

We saw same habits and behaviors from stuff like everything from furries, to Qtards, to pro-anorexia groups, to flat earthers, to trannies, all reinforcing their own mental problems and extremisms. This also resulted in faggy things like MGTOW or whatever it was, so I think in conclusion that maybe divorcing ourselves from actual reality around us and different viewpoints may become a bad thing that just keeps getting worse every year, and that knowing the world is probably ending up getting exploited by the handful of remaining megacorps into some artifical social cliques according to brand name allegiances.
No. 64047 Kontra
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> So again I can ask, why are you even going there?
I don't, haven't been since its inception and noticing it was the same cancer that killed KC.

I also couldn't miss any point of yours because you don't have any.
It was inane shartrambling, as always.

You know what? I am the Ernst who got off 4chan and apologized in the today thread. And I take back what I said.
I do not apologize, you people are horrible, any imageboard becomes worse when americans post on it and I fully support rangebanning americans from EC.
It's really astonishing how someone can be so completely and utterly ignorant and be missing even a single quark of self-awareness and still have the gall to shipost about russians and KC and whatever on this very board.
The anger that had subsided over the course of the week is back again.
It's not 4chan posters. It's americans. I must simply stop interacting with you.
Now imagine I had insulted you wildly because what I am thinking at this very moment I can't type out without getting banned.
No. 64063 Kontra
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You know what, I take back my apology and post deletion from when I shitposted about the German character. I'm not in the mood now but next time it occurs to me I'm going to shitpost harder than ever about German inferiority complexes, authoritarianism, and covetousness.

The most hilarious thing of all to me is the specific reason my country makes you so near universally asshurt isn't even because of your inborn character being allergic to all that America stands for, nor even the fact that America had accomplished and succeeded at all you wish you could have, but perhaps worst of all, the fact that every negative stereotype and meme about us is literally just about that Germanic infestation in the middle of our continent. Even that original Ameribear picture the meme was based on is a 100% 14/88s Germanic American. All the ignorant, arrogant, greedy, narcissistic, money obsessed, weirdly superstitious yet godless at the same time, culture hating group of authoritarian simple minded lardasses comes directly and specifically from the Germanic waves. I've come to conclude that while virtually any culture or civilization can indeed be Americanized, there is something specific to the German character, like a seed of Caine or Ham, some inborn vestigial tail of its neamderthal heritage, that makes it incapable of ever truly being a real American.

I take it back. I absolutely should have left my tongue in cheek shitpost about you up; I absolutely should have retained the post talking about how a German-American may use the same words like "freedom" as an American, but is incapable of meaning or understanding it as an American. I suppose it is another great twist of irony and contradiction, like my overall aversion to mindless shitposting and foreign wars, that sometimes to protect something sacred one must get dirty and wage war, and one must shitpost.
Usually when humans face aggression from the German tribes again. Thank God the people of Israel could be delivered from their bondage in your country, even if only to retain your traits of greediness, covetousness, narrow mindedness, racism, and militarism as a result of said captivity to such an extent that people began confusing German traits with the normally kind hearted, curious, open minded, giving, and peace loving nature of the Hebrew peoples, who've largely returned to their true natures even after being scarred from their journey as Ashkenazim, a beautiful language being marred through the gutter of Germanism than now even "speaking Jewish" is associated only with Yiddish. It is my sincere hope that even a 1/4th Russian man such as yourself can dream of sometime having a real space program however, because mine is a hope for the human race, regardless what petty or more unimportant countries care about me.

Just know that no matter how many salty shitposts you leave at me, I am still an American in America posting from a computer still equivalent in power to a 11700k/RTX 3060 or 1080ti tier build, and you are still stuck as a German in Germany. Now hand over your fireworks pls
No. 64077
>Moreover why are any of you even going there at this point?
It's thanks to new-KC that I know about the importance of tribes within Kazakhstan and that I should be prejudiced against the Naimans because they're basically Chinese.

Now this is KC-tier. Maybe I won't have to keep going there after all.
No. 64078
>It's thanks to new-KC that I know about the importance of tribes within Kazakhstan and that I should be prejudiced against the Naimans because they're basically Chinese.
As a proud Naiman, I take exception to that.
We are more like the Kazakh equivalent of Ashkenazim. As in, the only phenotype in central asia with IQ above 100, so people fear and despise us.
We're not intentionally "scamming" people, we're just doing business as usual, but our incredibly high IQs just make it seem like we pulled some evil underhanded trick or scheme, simply because the knuckledraggers are too stupid to understand it.

As usual nu-KC gets it wrong.

I'd say the equivalent of the chinese are the southern tribes. They breed fast, they have big families and nepotism, they send their children to the north to work and send them back money, a lot of whom end up as grifters, etc. Also they're short and brown, that should count for something.
No. 64080
>I'd say the equivalent of the chinese are the southern tribes. They breed fast, they have big families
That's not what they meant when they called you Chinese. They meant Naimans literally came from China unlike the other tribes who already lived in Central Asia and were assimilated into the horde, and that politically the Naimans were the biggest suckups to the rulers and the other tribes hold a grudge for this to this day. You are right though about them also calling you untrustworthy merchants.
That's every tribe other than yours. Why don't you people help each other? When every other tribe is doing it you lose if you play at being rugged individualists.
No. 64081
1,2 MB, 891 × 633
>the horde
Bait harder. Üş jüz bar, batystyq sartoid.
No. 64082
132 kB, 752 × 590
>he fell for the sart propaganda
Don't listen to sarts, they're constantly angry at us because they're short, brown and have a small man complex.
Also, they're crypto-persoids.
No. 64120
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It's high time I replied to my own thread. I like my country, I really do. Compared to other options, I'd say I was extremely lucky to be born in such a prosperous* and free society. From my experiences abroad, my fellow countrymen tend to be more reserved and private than other southern Europeans, while being relatively open and friendly. They're alright. The society we have inherited and built is one that is extremely safe, with proper respect for all manner of rights. Laws tend to be lenient and enforcement of said laws is for better or worse, equally lenient.

I used to really hate this country. I hated the economic stagnation, corruption, excessive leftism and all sort of social ills, real and imagined, that a teenager who is leaned heavily towards right wing views would diagnose. I planned to leave this 'shithole' and seek fortunes elsewhere. Nowadays, I'm glad I'm a citizen of this Republic.
Beyond the sphere of government, there isn't much to hate. We're a calm and collected people who tend to follow the path of least resistance. People, in general, are nice. There is a good deal of respect for the individual and his choices, while not being overly individualistic. These are all very subjective things and there's a natural tendency for one to feel comfortable in his own culture, but that is how I feel.

I can still summon the hatred I once felt by looking through twitter posts relating to national politics and seeing how fucking brain dead some people are, but I know I'm no better. I don't think things would improve greatly if I held the post of Führer over my countrymen. Not that I'd want to, one of our great virtues is moderation, even in extremism.

Plus, the scenery is nice.
No. 64164
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This map just gave me KOEI's Ghenghis Khan feelings.
No. 64166
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Rate 5 minute edit.
No. 64187
Like all patriotic Norwegians I love Spain and would defend it to death.
No. 66553
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>that map
The east asian part is beyond ridiculous.

>Naimans came from china
I've only seen haplogroup autists claim the most common chinese haplo was shared by naiman. But even haplo schizos knew this doesnt amount to any historical meaning.
First mention of naimans in chinese chronicles was during liao dynasty.
No. 66556 Kontra
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t. proud woman of color
No. 79722