/int/ – No shittings during wörktime
„There is no place like home“

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No. 7151
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Does anyone else have this assburger hobby? Also, feel free to criticize my place-names if they sound silly in your language.
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No. 7154
How'd you deform the map? Did you just eyeball it? Or was it put through some kind of software?
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No. 7164
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>>7151
Hmmm this is looks familiar
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No. 7165
>>7154
Just eyeballing it. I drew a crude ancestor of this map many years ago and I've been tinkering with it and touching it up ever since then. Most of it's been freehand, but a couple sections were traced over antiquated and obsolete maps.
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No. 7167
>>7165
Wow. It's pretty well done. I wouldn't have picked it as being done by hand because it's so detailed. Nice penmanship.
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No. 7196
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>>7164
my autism triggered because of island=naval power claim. in most of their history britain wasnt naval power and I dont see how sri lanka, australia and indo*malay islands being naval power at all.
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No. 7198
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>>7196
Australia wasn't. We've been regionally significant but the problem is that we're local to a lot of big fish so it doesn't seem like it. We had a Battleship in WWI and a pair of carriers in the 50s through 80s when for some reason disbanding the Fleet Air Arm was an election point. Pretty dumb looking back tbh.

Also the Indonesians were pretty maritime in the past, there is an Aboriginal pigdin in Northern Australia that's shared with people in PNG and the Indonesian Islands and there is a strong merchant tradition in a lot of SE Asia because of their spice trade with places like China which forwarded it on to the silk road.
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No. 7199 Kontra
>>7198
*wasn't irrelevant
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No. 7204
>>7198
when someone says naval power I dont assume something minor, I rather assume someone ruling seas like spain and portugal. indonesians are rather dwarfed by others afaik.
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No. 7205
>>7204
It depends on where your scale lies. I tend to consider powers regionally when looking at most historical periods. Spain was a significant naval power in the Mediterranean for a long time but China was also a naval power in their neck of the woods. If they met, Spain would probably have come out on top, but the geographic reality was that both were powers of equal standing in their own regions. It's also visible with Yemen's power over Red Sea trade until their regional hegemony was successfully challenged. Until that point, their global irrelevance didn't matter so much as their local force in compared to other local forces.

In modern history, with the rise of empires and eventually the superpowers, the regional aspect is still very important. Britain was a more significant naval power than the Japanese, but lacked local force to contest Japan's sea dominance in the Pacific War. The US is active in the Pacific region but most of the Island nations have closer ties to Australia and especially New Zealand than they do to them. Australia and New Zealand dominate that region economically and we're also the ones who tend to have the most visible military presence when disasters hit. Furthermore, we host the big international naval exercise for the South Pacific region, so despite the fact that the US and increasingly India and China are the big dogs in the Pacific theatre, in terms of the South Pacific region, Australia is actually a pretty notable naval power. As long as that status remains uncontested in that region, our global significance is irrelevant to it. Vanuatu doesn't give a rat's arse if the US is the bigger and more powerful navy when ours is anchored off their shore and is being very visible. The US is the true hegemon of the region and we all know it but the Trans-Tasman bloc is the regional power that actually exerts some visible force projection outside of the wargames which makes the region under the ANZ sphere of influence more than the US sphere.

I hope that makes sense anyway. I think that you can't understand things as a global hegemonic system because relative power within regions is often more important to the geopolitical dynamic of a region than their power in the strictest sense. China can bully their way across the South China Sea not because their navy is formidable globally, but because it's formidable regionally. It doesn't make them less of a naval power, they've got force projection from it in the region they're aiming to project into after all. It gets kind of convoluted.
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No. 7237
>>7164
Mine's better.

>>7167
Thank you!
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No. 7238
>>7204
I think the idea of naval power only makes sense when your start putting canons in ships, because then you can actually have ranged naval battles as well as bombard land. And meds were the ones who pioneered that AFAIK.
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No. 7243
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>>7238
Not really. Naval power is on two axes. The first and oldest is Sea Lane Control and the other is Force Projection and/or Multiplication.

The former refers to the ability to keep shipping lanes open against the wishes of others or close them to others, keep sea traffic safe and so on. This has been the role of a fleet for a long time. Anti-Piracy measures are a form of Sea Lane Control and have been happening for thousands of years. They don't necessarily require cannon, one of the great innovations of the Roman fleet was the Corvus which made boarding actions easier by meaning that well-trained soldiers could participate in action against sailors without the same experience in hand to hand combat (a force multiplier), and in some cases siege engines were present at sea, so the ability for heavy fire wasn't ignored. Ranged combat wasn't required for the naval power status because it wasn't a major factor in naval combat in that time. The Roman fleet at its height was indeed a naval power in the Mediterranean, piracy flourished only so long as they were ignored and was crushed when they weren't. The ability of the Romans to exercise control over their sea lanes was impressive when they wanted it to be and they were able to strike at pirate havens relatively easily and move precious goods over a lot of the empire by sea with a great deal of success.

You're more correct about needing cannon for the axis of Force Projection/Multiplication. This is all about taking your ability to fight a significant war and project it beyond your borders so that you can fight the same war except far from your main base of supply. Even here, I'd say it was the ship designs that allowed it more than the cannons specifically. The cannons were extremely important to the success of those designs, but cannons on a galley still weren't going to provide the kind of force projection required by an Empire with distant holdings. In this period though, the sea lanes are still the major field of the fleet. Cannons acted as force multipliers because you could engage an enemy and attrit his forces before they could engage with you, or you could have good gunnery training and make sure that you did better at ranges than the other ship that had guns.

With the advent of howitzers and mortars finding their homes on ships, you started to get vessels that could actively participate in support of ground operations, projecting naval power inland further which is part of where force multiplication really comes from. Since you're fighting away from your base of supply, you need to make each of your men count for more and having far-reaching artillery support from the navy is one way to do that since it lessens the immediate need for heavy field artillery in the beachhead. In the very modern, interdiction is also a means of force multiplication, with the best example being the U-Boats sinking far more tonnage than the same number of surface raiders could and taking the smaller and less powerful Kriegsmarine and by interdicting sea traffic rather than fighting it, they were able to contend on some level with the navies of true naval powers like Britain.

So while the ways in which naval power could be exercised changed with cannons and indeed got a lot more complex, I don't think that you can only be a naval power with cannon. I'd say that if we'r talking global naval power then yes, the technology of cannons tends to coincide with other technologies that were required for that, but just naval power status in general is something I like to see as a network of regional and hegemonic powers as detailed above.
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No. 7255
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>England BIG
>Denmark underwater and Scandinavians sticking to bullying Scotland
>Eelport

Pretty good/10 having the Gates of Alexander was a nice touch. I'd like to see you create a fantasy map of East Asia, I don’t think I've ever seen one so it would be unique and outline a Korean perspective.

>>7204
"British" navies regularly messed up Spain and France though, it’s hardly a case of Spain/Portugal ruling the seas. Even at Spain’s height they were unable to prevent English attacks on shipping or protect their empire from attack while the Anglo-Spanish War asserted a British zone of naval security.

Fleets were quickly assembled and crewed throughout recorded British history and employed in activities like taking Lisbon. Something that happened because maritime activity naturally breeds shipbuilding and seamanship that scales with your coastline. The Dutch tended to give us a shoeing but it proves the point given they were eclipsed owing to divided priorities on land. 

To get to the point, if you want to be a naval power then you need a coast – and islands for good measure so geography provides some destiny. 

>>7204
The problem I see with a cannon requirement is that it means Athens was never a naval power despite defining the term within western consciousness as distinct from land.
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No. 7300
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I once met a Pole
Who lived in the Caliphate of Holes
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No. 7976
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May it be thread of all fantasy in general? And mapping too of cource, but we may also talk about fantasy ssetings, universes, their lore, general memes, chlishe, funny things and talk about fantasy books and lore part of fantasy games.
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No. 7988
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>>7976
I hope you guys enjoy it.
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No. 7992
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>>7988
>turkball - elder scrolls novers
Elder Scrolls lore after TES4? Serieosly?
>harry potter
Oh here we go. Is this even counts as fantasy?

Anyway this thread full of shitposts and majority of suggestions are something most well known and most generic classic possible. Like Tolkien that is basis and nowdays hyped Witcher/Wedzemin and game of thrones and whatver books was called. Funny that I not seen any suggestions about Conan for example.

From game of thrones I always laught. All saying how it's NEW AND ORIGINAL but fuck it like Muhteşem Yüzyıl plus most basic fantazy possible. Most of series is boring shit where authors try directly copy some events from medival history and surprise iq55s by showing KILLS AND SEX. But when it comes to fantazy elements it look like 12yo childern first DnD adventure - EVIL WIZARD IN TOWER, DRAGONS THAT WAS LOST BUT NOW BACK AND GIRL CONTROL IT, KINGDOMS OF HOOMANS CONTINENT AND CONTINENT OF ASIA/MILLDE EAST AND PIRATE ISLANDS. And don't forget THE WALL that protect from EVIL IN FROZEN LANDS. In 8 season trailer with that dragon they litteraly ripped off FUCKING 2008 WORLD OF WARCRAFT WRATH OF THE LICH KING TRAILER, BUT MORE BAD GRAPHICS AND PLOT IS WORSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCr7y4SLhck.
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No. 7994
>>7992
>>7992
you know that %99 of posts that thread, are not mine yes?
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No. 7995
>>7994
Yes I just answer the pictures, on question if I like it or not
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No. 8018
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No. 8047
>>7992
Warcraft III ripped off the books to the point of naming the last mission of the frozen throne after series. Also, nobody is saying game of thrones is new and original anymore. It was during the first two seasons and mainly because it felt like no character had the plot armour protecting them, but of course it all changed especially with the later seasons of the TV-series.
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No. 8060
>>8047
I don't know where it may rip-off this books that much. Books have yndeground spider kingdom? Evil lavcraftian dark monsters in depths? Anthropomorphic bulls that fight with centaurs? Demon legion that conquering worlds? Path to another world that was destroyed by it's native people into floating rocks in void?
I can't recall any of it. There might be some easter eggs in end of missions but from what I know I not find direct similarities.
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No. 8063
>>8060
Lol the whole idea of the scourge is ripped out straight from the song of ice and fire book series that the game of thrones TV-series is based on. Ice zombies from the north and some guy far in the north who sees everything who turns into a crow. The influence of the three-eyed raven on Medivh and the Lich King is obvious as fuck.

The very last mission of the frozen throne is even called "A Symphony of Frost and Flame", an obvious reference to "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series. They didn't even try to hide it.
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No. 8070
>>8063
Lol did you know that memes with undead and death knoghts are from warcraft 2, right? And there no actual single direct similarities with got
In got there are ancient evil lands beyound le wall where ancient undead once per 1000 years or something start their magical marth when winter comes on all world.

In warcraft 3 there fucking orc ner'zhul who was placed there like only 15 years before warcraft 3 maximum (forgot how many times come after beyon dark portal untill reign of chaos) and was used mostly as energy source for other corrupt mages who starting to make hell lot of undead shit just to make chaos and death around so lazy legion can easely conquer le-world. But they become more and more independed since ner-zuhl for obvious reasons if you know story of how orcs in first place fall in hands of demons actually hate legion and with defeat of Archimond they start their own shit, while butthurt kil'jeden who twise captured ner-zuhl before and maded his slave after things happened found another looser (illidan) to destroy him.

Point me in similarities to got besides fun easter egg in one of intermissions?
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No. 8074
>>8070
I already pointed out a few examples.

>crow man appears in the dreams of people
>Three-eyed raven & Medivh

>A man stuck on a throne who can see everything
>Three-eyed raven & Lich King

>undead from a frozen wasteland
>beyond the wall & northrend

>A Symphony of Frost and Flame
>A Song of Ice and Fire
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No. 8082
>>8074
>crow man appears in the dreams of people
He appears not only in dreams. Medivh are old character who before invasion of legion go back and fourth to other people and tell them about that soon happen bad shit. Only place when he appeared in dream was Thrall because Thrall is shaman and can view magic dreams, otherwise he go to people directly. He is not magical 3-eyed crow and there no any connection with some sort order of people who thelepaticly can control animals. Become raven is ordinary ability a lot druids in warcraft universe can do it. And tbh it is kind of fantasy cliche to "become raven" or "raven telling truth" that same as things like "elves, trolls, magic" - go from far more ancient tales that books of fat man with beard.

>A man stuck on a throne who can see everything
He can not see EVERYTHING but he is actual instrument, again, placed there not long ago and already familiar character. He kinda retranslated orders of burning legion and when burning legion appeared they take control of undead army directly and lich-king become useless. It only a little bit after we relise that lich king don't want die and not support legion but just pretended to be slave while making his own plan how to survive.

>undead from a frozen wasteland
Undead are NOT from frozen wasteland. In Northrend placed only ner-zhul. For this 15 years he only infulenced and conquered nerubian kingdoms with his magic power. Core of Scourge was made by cultists and renegate kirin tor mages as kel-thuzed who fall into influence of lich king and start plague around lordaeron and nearby kingdoms. This is not ancient undead who come here ffom some sort of frozen lands beyond the wall.

>A Symphony of Frost and Flame
Maybe devs just relissd same similarities and wanted to place small easter eggs. A lot of media full of similar refferences, from lotr to star trek. I can even much more agree that original warcraft ripped off fantasy warhammer and movie Evil Dead III: Army of Darkness but there similarities you lointing attached with blue tape.
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No. 8087
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>>8082
>warcraft III rips off A Song of Ice and Fire
>"just an easter egg"

>Game of Thrones rips off WoW (which is full of game of thrones references)
>"In 8 season trailer with that dragon they litteraly ripped off FUCKING 2008 WORLD OF WARCRAFT WRATH OF THE LICH KING TRAILER, BUT MORE BAD GRAPHICS AND PLOT IS WORSE"
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No. 8088
>>8087
>ripps off
It is not, and I make a previous post about why. Name of one mission as a joke not counts as any rip-off, it same as fallout have maltese falcon bar, I don't think it is ever count as ripping off something.

Whiever create trailer for new season of series of got directly had visual references from this trailer, and it's obvious as hell, not like "got and warcraft have crows!", same as in 90s warcraft creators just ripped off style of orks and other things from fantasy battles.
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No. 8090
>>8088
Warcraft III got their idea of the undead straight from the Song of Ice and Fire books. You can pretend that's not the case and how it's all a mere happenstance but whining about the Game of Thrones TV-series having a similar style as the Wrath of the Lich King is just fucking stupid. What else could they do? Get rid of the blue glow in the eyes that's menioned in the books just to avoid ripping off WoW that was obviously influenced by the source material for the TV-series?
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No. 8092
>>8090
>Warcraft III got their idea of the undead straight from the Song of Ice and Fire books.
Because you said so? There all your claims answered
>>8082

You failed to proof me that there are direct rip-offs of this books besides classic fantasy cliches that was created way before Martin even born.

>What else could they do?
Dunno... not just rippin off direct visuals and structure of that trailer? I bet that book description allow more wide interpritation of same object that they done. Considering that as I know, nowdays series are far from books anyway.
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No. 8093
>>8092
>undead with blue glow in their eyes from a frozen wasteland
That visual was done first by the book and then by Warcraft III and then by the TV-series. Warcraft III devs didn't even try to hide it and named the last mission after the book series.
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No. 8095
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>>8093
>That visual was done first by the book and then by Warcraft III and then by the TV-series. Warcraft III devs didn't even try to hide it and named the last mission after the book series.

>first by the book
GLOWING UNDEAD cliche presented in 9000 fantasy books and media but often done different ways visualy. Not all undead in warcraft GLOWING BLUE, even in times of WoW it just one of pthes, of the cold specificly. Fact that whoever done this trailer copied Wow trailer is because structure of what happened combined with with direct visulas are absoluetly similar.

>then by Warcraft III
I not seen everything that was done in warcraft 3 in game of thrones. There are no really orgnised army with necromancers and cultists and structured/buildins and knights. There are no skeletons and other meat abominations. In got there no orcs or demon army. You know who ripp-offed got most probably? Todd Howard for his TES5, when he changed skyrim, lore about dragons and visuals of Dragugr so they look and act absoluetly like horde of ice zombies from got. Here I belive that it was rip-offed. With warcraft - there are no single direct ripoff that can be count without doubts. Besides generic fantasy elements, there no single similarity between got walking dead and scourge from warcraft 3, and only thing that have some connect is that Warcraft placed undead leader in frozen continent and final mission kinda may have refference to got, however got books names are so generic, that even with this I can not be shure.

I can assume that people who done TV series and CGI was fan of warcrafts, seen some similarities in trailer of WOW and this memes and just ripped it off just because it will "fit" this moment in got. Same as if diseny start directly ripping of classic battlestar galactica just because it "fits" star wars.
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No. 8101
>>8095
Yeah, I can assure you that Warcraft III devs were big fans of A Song of Ice and Fire and thought it would be cool to have White Walkers in their game so they made Scource to be their own variant. I mean, they were such big fans that they even named the last mission of their game after the book series. So when GoT ripped off WoW they just copied a copied style. Big fucking deal.
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No. 8102
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>>8101
For fucks sake you absoluetly ignoring what I write and continue to repead same words over and over. You continue repeat same meme about you thought they they names last mission after got and all claims you provided additionaly was wrong. I'll will not continue arguing about it, think what you want to think.
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No. 8104
>>8102
You really want me to adress the parts in which you say how Warcraft III devs didn't rip off white walkers when creating the Scourge because Warcraft also has orcs and demons in it unlike Game of Thrones? :D I just ignore those parts because they're too stupid to adress. I also ignore the parts in which you try to teach me lore about the game I've been playing for the past +10 years nonstop.

When someone says Game of Thrones rips off Warcraft it's like saying Warhammer 40K rips off Starcraft.
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No. 8105
Isn't blue glowing undead a WoTLK meme?

In WC3, undead weren't really glowing anything. They were just rotten.

Liches glowed blue, but it's because they mostly used frost magic.
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No. 8106 Kontra
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>>8105
>In WC3, undead weren't really glowing anything. They were just rotten.
They all glowing different colors of their faction, lol. Well, eyes glowing since this is indication of that creature contain hell lot of magic. I Wow trailer Arthas filled all with owerpower of magic

>>8104
>When someone says Game of Thrones rips off Warcraft it's like saying Warhammer 40K rips off Starcraft.

You ignoring everything I said and talk bullshit like this.

>You really want me to adress the parts in which you say how Warcraft III devs didn't rip off white walkers when creating the Scourge because Warcraft also has orcs and demons in it unlike Game of Thrones?
PARTS WHERE I PUT YOU THAT SCOURGE AND IT'S STORY AND IT'S STRUCTURE AND IT'S BEHAIVOR HAVE ANYTHING IN COMMON WITH FUCKING GOT IN ANY FUCKING WAY BEHIND IDEA THAT IN LORE PRESENTED FROZEN LANDS WHICH IS FANTASY CLICHE AND THAT THEY BOTH UNDEAD WHICH IS ALSO FANTAZY CHICHE FROM MOST ANDCIENT TIMES.
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No. 8108
>>8106
sorry
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No. 8109
>>8106
Oh the story of the scourge is just ripped off from Starcraft and zerg so in that case blizzard was just ripping off their older game but I was mostly talking about the style. Blizzard devs aren't the most original people.

If you can't see the similarity between Arthas as Lich King and White Walkers then I can't help you. I mean, as I've said a few times, the blizzard devs even named the last mission of their game after the book series, so the influence is obvious as fuck. Also, I think both Lich King and Medivh are partly influenced the three-eyed raven. It's not as obvious but since the devs obviously were fans of the book series it's quite likely that they thought the idea of some guy stuck on a throne in the middle of some frozen wasteland sounded cool. So they kind of fused White Walkers with three-eyed raven to create Lich King. Then they made this other prophet guy to appear as a crow in people's dreams and stuff because it seemed cool in the books.

Then when you look at the shape of Lordaeron or even Kalindor they look very much like Westeros. Then when Thrall and those orcs travel to Kalindor they come across this desert wasteland. That kind of reminds me of Essos which is also a desert with nomads roaming around much like Kalindor had those centaurs roaming around. All I see is parallels and how the warcraft III devs were obviously fans of the books. You could say these are all just some fantasy cliches but then again someone could say the trailer that you said somehow ripped off WoW is just using structural cliches in case you want to be a huge dick.
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No. 8113
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>>8109
>Oh the story of the scourge is just ripped off from Starcraft and zerg so in that case blizzard was just ripping off their older game but I was mostly talking about the style
I not see any direct rip-offs expet both are force that transform and conquering.

You know where blizzard did direct rip-offs? When in end of Brood War they made cinematic in direct style of Verhoven's Starship Troopers movie. Ironicly, Starcraft ripped off book of Startship Troopers more than WH40k. More ironicly, that Warhammer 40k created it's space marines as they are inspired by that book too.

>style
I see no similarities of style of all undead and undead from got. I see direct style connections between Elder Scrolls 5 and GoT. I see none of them between Warcraft and GoT.

>If you can't see the similarity between Arthas as Lich King and White Walkers then I can't help you.
You can't because you not rpovided actual example where it directly ripped off.
>I mean, as I've said a few times, the blizzard devs even named the last mission of their game after the book series
They are not. It's you assumed that name is similar and it may be or may be not. And even if it is, which I duobt, it just one name as easter egg. In GTA for example 90% of minnion names are some jokes about mass culture. In might and magic 6 as paroles in pyramid used backwards character names from star trek. So might and magic rip offs star trek in that case?

>Also, I think both Lich King and Medivh are partly influenced the three-eyed raven.
As I said, their story and lore and characters WAAAY too difirent and all similarities are your assumption and nothing more.

>Then they made this other prophet guy to appear as a crow in people's dreams and stuff because it seemed cool in the books.
This "other pothet guy" and Ner-zhul is one of the msot important characters in warcraft even before third game, and before they had different roles and written story how it's happenend, and exept one case "prothet" never appeared in someone dreams and act absoluetly opposite that raven in GoT.

>Then when you look at the shape of Lordaeron
Map of Game of thrones is inverted britain attached to turkey directly without other europe. Nothing fancy, fantasy cliche.

Continent, which contained Lordaeron, Quel-Talas and continent of Azeroth and Kaz Modan was created before warcraft 3 and for majority of parts reamined same before WOW. This continent is actualy inverted America continents - north and south if you look more close at it. Azeroth is south america, while Gilneas is florida and channel islands with lut'tiras is carribean islands, and additionaly we have islands north of quel'thalas like in real canada. This is fantasy cliche too, but besides meme about "world that contain islies that very big to be almost continents but smaller than be actual continent" is presented in 9000 fantasy ssetings. And with warcraft 1-2 and Warcraft adventures and other pre-WC3 materials there are no even sinle, even foggy parrarels with anything in GoT.

Kalimdor - absoluetly archetypical fantasy thing. It was created not "because GoT" but just because it is typical when you created previously metioned SMALL CONTINENT and need new undiscovered lands for your story - you just creating new continent around sea with something "exotic".
In GoT if I remember correctly this continent was created right from begining, and already contained states and cities, when Kalimdor was created as empty place filled with all kinds of wierdos - sleeping ancient elves and absoluetly wild tribes only and proper shape and regions this continent start getting only after WC3, in WC3 it more like "azeroth" from warcraft 1 where only small bit of world shown. I also don't recall in GoT giant ethernal storm between two continents.

>You could say these are all just some fantasy cliches but then again someone could say the trailer that you said somehow ripped off WoW is just using structural cliches in case you want to be a huge dick.
Use undead or create fantasy maps contained human kigdoms or have guy turned into raven or have frozen lands is most basic fantasy cliches. Hell, look at first pic there - >>7976 in many ways borth warcraft creators and Martin are FORGERS OF WORLDS from this picture, at least was at some point and it's not a miracle. Look at last pic from my post - this iss clearly the rip-off of GoT and I will never doubt it and fuck Todd Howard, Kirkbride's Skyrim was much more interesting that this crap. But with warcraft? I see no similarities.

But yes, it happen that WotLK trailer looked like it may actually FIT game of thrones. And creators of current season of TV series just taked idea and used it in their series. And it happened that it actually fits their needs. But not a miracle, GoT in many ways generic as fuck.
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No. 8117
>>8113
Originally in Warcraft III they planned Jaina Proudmore to basically take the role of Arthas by becoming undead etc. However they changed that because even for Blizzard it was way too similar to the plot of Starcraft with Zerg/Kerrigan. So instead of having Sarah, I mean Jaina turn zerg undead, they chose to turn Jim Arthas into a zerg an undead instead. Then blizzard realized they want to make the undead a playable race in WoW so they decided to retrofit Sylvanas back into the game as a dark ranger instead of just some random banshee and decided to rip-off the whole starcraft subplot anyway but used Sylvanas instead of Jaina in the role of Sarah so that they'd have someone to rebel against the overmind Lich King. It got all the same pieces that they just mixed up a bit.

And when it comes to Ner'zhul and Medivh being characters even in the previous games, that's exactly the reason why I think they were so influenced by A Song of Ice and Fire. These characters to me look like a huge retrofit. I don't think Medivh had anything to do with crows or Ner'zhul had anything to do with ice and frost before they decided to retrofit them into the Warcraft III mold they're known today. That retrofit and what they did to those characters, I think, is highly influenced by A Song of Ice and Fire.

Same with the whole northrend undead stuff and basically everything you can see in the Wrath of the Lich King trailer. That's why it's so silly to say Game of Thrones ripped off WoW. I mean, in warcraft 2 the whole necromancy was more of an orc thing and they got this typical green glow vibe to their skellingtons. They could've gone that route or even choose to make some burning hellish skellingtons for the burning legion, but instead they wanted white walkers who inhabit a frozen wasteland because it sounded so cool so they retrofitted ner'zhul to fit that kind of atmosphere better.
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No. 8118
>>8113
>I also don't recall in GoT giant ethernal storm between two continents.

Oh yeah the broken isles that used to inhabit the night elves but it all sank, Atlantis style. Same shit happened with Valyria and there's a smoking sea and some islands there now. Another case in which A Song of Ice and Fire and Warcraft are highly similar. There could be even more parallels we've missed. I'm pretty sure the devs had just read the the game of thrones and thought it was cool and retrofitted a lot of the stuff into their warcraft universe from the books.
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No. 8127
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>>8117
>Originally in Warcraft III
Originally, warcraft 3 and WoW gone thought a giant amount of re-edits, cuts, changes, remade almost from scrach. Untill certain point, world of warcraft and Warcraft 3 was same game, untill they are finnaly divided into separate games. But even after that they gone thought a lot things and changes, even game concepts was changed. At one point warcraft 3 was some sort of RPG game, in another they wanted to make separate sub-factions. Same as with WoW, which at end of 90s by style look more like some mix between ultima 9 classic warcraft. A lot related projects was cancelled - like whole Warcraft Adventures about different events and characters between warcraft II and warcraft III was cancelled. I'am shure at one point they might want use Jaina instead of Arthas, but besides HERO FALL INTO MONSTER AND BECOME LEADER OF ARMY OF DARKNESS, which is most basic meme of fantasy like EVER after "knight save princess" I see no real similarities between undead and zerg. Ah, gameplay-wise they use system of transforming ground, well gameplay-wise games connected, yeah, but I don't think it's part of disscution.
Honestely I sad that ships and sea battles/resourses/buildings, sub-factions with slightly different units (like High Elves/Dwarves/Humans choise), and some other elements was cut but this is talk for different thread I guess.

>These characters to me look like a huge retrofit.
Medivh was very powerfull and very mysterious mistic mage. He not changed his appreance much. He also described briefly in warcraft 3 why he done bad evil things and that he is now free from it, so this is why he want to warn others because he fell bad for what he done. Same goes with Ner-Zhul who logically get what he get after his ultimate fail in beyond the dark portal. I don't see DRAMATIC CHANGES in characters and your claim "they changed because GoT!" absolute false you imagined

>Same with the whole northrend undead stuff
This is whole giant pile of nonsence you continue to repeat over and over. "necromancy" is not "orc" thing, same with "disorcer" and "death" magic types, all of which alongise with warlocks was "gift" of burning legion, same as all undead and scourge was meant to be weapon and slave of legion, same as orcs was during warcraft 1-2 events. Undead not "burn and demonic" because they use two different types of magic. Undead is come from death, legion primary use disorder as it actual meaning of existence, since Sargeras, fallen titan, with using power of disorder wanted to prevent horrible things that come from "shadow", like dark gods (yes, this lovecraftian things you can see in frothen throne in nerubian kingdoms). In death there are three paths - Blood, Frost and Unholy. Unholy is actually this GREEN SHIT thing, plagues and even in wow remain as one of paths Dath Knight can choose.

>but instead they wanted white walkers who inhabit a frozen wasteland because it sounded so cool so they retrofitted ner'zhul to fit that kind of atmosphere better.
THERE ARE NO WHITE WALKERS IN NORTHEN WASTLEAND. There whole time was sitting just Ner'Zhul hided that corrupt local nerubian kingdoms and have some protection. Actual Scourge as army made it into Northrend only in final campain in frozen throne, and not even from start. Again - Undead army of Scourge is concretical organisation with acolytes, non-dead members, economy, ierarchy, knights and warriors and necromancers. It more like Necromancer club where some high ranked members made themselfs into undead creatures too, with traped soul of Ner'Zhul as a leader who keep this organisation together, but as any organisation, when control a little bit dropped off, some branches of it become independed. They construct building and structures, have some rules and different goals.
While walkers in GoT besides it's leader is basicly just regular zombies. They not build anything, they has no any members or actual order, they not create anything, it's just horde of romero-like zombies mixed with frost mummies. And in GoT they go from frozen lands, that unlike Northrend which is another different continent because warcraft creators needed new lands and new locations, while in GoT since it just britain island, it representing scotland with that wall romans builded. There like not a single direct similarity between Scourge and White Walkers.

And so happened, that Arthas after years during which he killed and remnats of his soul and soul of Ner'Zhul, and in trailer we see how he is awakinig, ressurecting his favorite frost wyrm, and filled everyone with his frost magic. And so it happen that same this footage can "fit" Game of Thrones new season where now undead guy have dragon and his walkers re kinda frost too, so they directly ripped-off this trailer for their nu-season of show and now happy.

>>8118
Looks like someone who playing "10 years" didn't know most basic lore of warcraft? Whole ocean between eastern kigdoms, northrend and kalimdor was once one whole big land, but was destroyed was back. Broken islands, not in malestorm that I metion. They are not far from it, but not inside - what I metion is Darkspear Islands that Thrall fall in with his fleet during his travel to kalimdor. Broken islands are clother to Eastern Kingdoms, was rised by Gul'Dan from bottom of sea. Of cource adter 15-20 years since Gul'Dan did it in warcraft 2, they become kinda jungle, since it happens with new volcano islands even in fucking real life.

What happen in GoT is some peninsula drowned in ocen. It happen in like EVERY 2ND FUCKING FANTASY and again, this similarities that you put out of your ass. Even more I can make parralels with GoT and TES5 that ACTUALLY ripped off GoT, when skyrim capital with peninsula just fall of into ocean, just because Todd Howard was too lazy to make big city.

You just fan of GoT and see this everywhere. With saim foggy "claims" I may try to start talk that Warcraft ripped of lord of the rings, or might and magic, or forgotten relams, or anything. Oh, look, here orcs too! And undead! And elves everywhere! Did you know that Neromantic baroms of Deija from Antagrich from Enroth, one of Might and Magic worlds, much, much more close to scourge? With it's liches, necromancers, cultists, builded towns and armies of different kinds of undead, don't forget guys like Sandro, but I not claim that Warcraft ripped off Might and Magic. Don't try to imagine direct similarities when there none of them. And don't claim rip-off in places when something just use common thropes. I said that GoT ripp of this trailer just because for fucks sake they ripp-offed it almost absoluetly, with even some elements of visuals. I'am shure, they can make it make slightly different, since White Walkers are more like romero zombies mixed with mummies and stuff but they litteraly made fucking lich king trailer.
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No. 8134
>>8127
>I said that GoT ripp of this trailer just because for fucks sake they ripp-offed it almost absoluetly, with even some elements of visuals. I'am shure, they can make it make slightly different,
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if those GoT hacks ripped off WoW but Warcraft ripped off ASOIAF first so I'm not surprised. There's not that many ways to portray an undead army with blue glow in their eyes. And if that's just a "fantasy cliche" then I doubt the GoT makers ripped off WoW but rather they just rehashed the generic fantasy cliche.

>since White Walkers are more like romero zombies mixed with mummies and stuff but they litteraly made fucking lich king trailer.
No, white walkers are the "leaders" as you called them. The mindless zombies are just some undead army of wrights or whatever they're called. The white walkres are like the Lich King. They got a blue glow in their eyes and they command and army of the undead. Oh and they live in a frozen wasteland. To be honest, I can't think of any other fantasy that ticks all the boxes like this, all in the same package like it is the case with ASOIAF and Warcraft.

I just don't get how you can still not admit that Warcraft ripped off ASOIAF, especially when it comes to Lich King and his aesthetics as it's seen in the Wrath of the Lich King trailer.
>A Symphony of Frost and Flame
>A Song of Ice and Fire
It's almost like even the warcraft devs admit it.
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No. 8160
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>>8134
>Oh and they live in a frozen wasteland
Nobody lives in fucking frozen lands, it's just places where lich king mounted, for fucks sake. All other members of Scourge are former Kirin Tor mages and acolytes, for fucks sake. Kel'Thuzad lived in fucking dalaran, as most of other scourge members, and they travel to Northrend only occasionaly. I don't... well, instead of repeating same obvious information like 5th time let's pretend I'am shizo too and imagening like Warcraft Ripped of M&M's same way you imagine it riped off GoT

On world of Enroth there are three major continets, that also not very big bug big enough to not be just islands. Same as Warcraft, coincedence??? One of this continents (Jadame) is filled with dark elves (!) and other wild wierdos like minotaurs (!!) and insect hives (!!!) and centaurs (!!!!) absoluetly like Kalimdor! Other continent is Enroth, same as whole world called (absoluetly same as with Azeroth and.. Azeroth!) On this continent there are human baronies that formed some sort of alliance kingdom (coincedence???) and during certain period they suffer invasion of DEMONS (who actually not a demons but alien-like creatures from space that was created by civilisation opposite to civilisation who colonised worlds as weapon against it but this is another theme) and one of goals to destroy SOURCE of this invasion (same as dark portal in warcraft???), and this demons also creating wierd cults of evil god that spread all across enroth, and also corrupt all around, like Eofol in Antagrich who once was home of halfings but now it's a lava wateland filled with corrupted creatures (same as horde when it's become corrupted by demons twise?). On Antagrich there are city-states and baronies of Deyja necromancer strongholds who use magic of Darkness. This is actually cities with population, laws, rulers, schools and all this kind of crap, they build structures and want to expand. During one of times, ruler of one of the main cities, The Pit, was ""evil"" brother to current king of enroth - Archibald Ironfist, who once was prince of Enroth and even managed to rule shor time with support of necromancers, before he lost to his brother, Roland, after some events flee to other continent to become ruler of giant evil army. During other events rulers of this army was Sandro, and then other idiot who was placed in this place but he was smart enough to remove sandro but dumb enough to ressurect dead Erathian king to make him ruler of Deyja (so many COINCEDENCES with all elements of scourge stories and Arthas that I will not even point them out). Also Deija after so many dark magic from forest become wasteland, same as eofol become lava wasteland, absoluetly same as in warcraft happened around dark portal, around blackrock moutian, around scourge when it build it's structures. There also FROZEN HIGLANDS which during some events was ultra-frozen ones with ethernal snow made by enchant and there during different periods was and important necromancer strongholds, and barbarian towns before and during Sucsession wars. Each world have it's GUARDIAN or even more than once. And FROZEN ISLAND near Antagrich where live Vori elves with blue skin or how they was called, that actually regular elvs. Plot of classic Might and magic that GUARDAIN OF WORLD OF TERRA GO ABSOLUETLY NUTS, other guardian on Jadame on Enroth afrer kreegan (metioned demons) invasion activated self destruction of whole world.

I may continue this to infinity. COINCEDENCES and similarities between MM and Warcraft like 1000 more than with warcraft and GoT, but still, I don't think in any way they stealed one from another.
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No. 8165
>>8160
So how did GoT rip off Wrath of the Lich King trailer?
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No. 8166
>>8165
Like, almost absoluetly directly visualy? Without any story similarities, we talk not about that. You already accepted it anyway
>Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if those GoT hacks ripped off WoW
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No. 8167
>>8166
Can you explain a bit more in detail? Because the similarities I agreed upon are
>frozen wasteland
>guy with a blue glow in their eye
>commands an undead army
That's the similarities I see.
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No. 8168
>>8167
Hell lot of videos on youtube
In some moments you can cut from one to another part and not notice difference
Here small example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gx_dAaiLWE

Of cource graphics and camera work in GoT slightly worse, but still.
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No. 8172
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>>8168
Yeah they're very similar. It also reminds me of Nazguls flying around on their flying mounts in the LOTR films. I'd be surprised if GoT guys who did the CGI weren't influenced by the Wrath of the Lich King, yeah, but even if WoW never existed they could've just ripped off LOTR films and get the same exact visuals by relocating the LOTR scene to a frozen wasteland and give the Nazgul a blue glow to their eyes.

So basically what makes White Walkers / Lich King kind of unique compared to more generic undead stuff is the theme of frost. I think the Warcraft devs took it from A Song of Ice and Fire book series since Warcraft I and II necromancy didn't really have anything to do with frost. I mean, around the time Warcraft III was being developed the Game of Thrones books were new and hyped. It's not too far fetched to think they took this idea of frost + undead from ASOIAF. Especially when the last mission quite likely references the book series.

I just don't get it why it's so hard for you to admit that warcraft devs were influenced by ASOIAF and especially when it comes to the Scourge and how they portray their undead in warcraft III with frost and stuff like that.
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No. 8173
>>8172
I like how you basicly ignoring majority of posts, take same already disaprooved facts and turn them around into 180 degree. And then, using as main "argument" - "why it's so hard for you to admit?"
Sorry, but disscutions not work like that. I hope, I delivered like 10 big posts to disaproove every word in your position as much, as I can, from my universe and plot knowlege, even comparing warcraft to another unrelated universe that I also I hope know well.
If continue see in your thoughts 100% proofs of ripping off the GoT but can't see similarities in trailer, saying that trailers similar that it's "fantasy cliche", but fallen peninsula and catastrophe of continent and raven is DIRECT RIPOFF, I can not help thee with this, sadly. This why I said from start - think what thou think, I not gonna worry about it.
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No. 8174
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>>8173
Fug forgot pic
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No. 8176
>>8173
>I like how you basicly ignoring majority of posts
Yes, because you keep posting irrelevant stuff. You said GoT ripped off Wrath of the Lich King trailer. Then I say Warcraft ripped off ASOIAF with
>frozen wasteland
>blue glow in the eyes
>undead army
Since that's pretty much all the stuff you can see in the Wrath of the Lich King trailer.

And then you start to continue writing lore that has nothing to do with ASOIAF and that I don't even claim to be ripped off from ASOIAF like some spider kingdom what whatnot. Of course it's not from ASOIAF! However, the frozen wasteland with a zombie army is in both ASOIAF and Warcraft.
Then you say stuff like this
>Nobody lives in fucking frozen lands, it's just places where lich king mounted, for fucks sake.
Even though the trailer of WotLK takes place in a frozen wasteland that is very similar to the ASOIAF and how in the Wrath of the Lich King game the Scourge is very much present in the Northrend.

>If continue see in your thoughts 100% proofs of ripping off the GoT but can't see similarities in trailer, saying that trailers similar that it's "fantasy cliche"
I already said I'd be surprised if GoT guys weren't influenced by WofLK trailer. Why I also say it's a fantasy cliche is because you keep saying how Warcraft was NOT influenced by ASOIAF because the combination of frost, undead and blue glowing eyes is just a "fantasy cliche". I have no problem saying tha GoT guys were influenced by blizzard cinematics but you clearly have a problem of admitting that warcraft III devs were likely influenced by ASOIAF.

>fallen peninsula and catastrophe of continent and raven is DIRECT RIPOFF, I can not help thee with this, sadly.
I didn't say they were DIRECT RIPOFFs. I'm just saying that ASOIAF was a new hyped fantasy book series when warcraft III was developed and the warcraft devs were pretty obviously influenced by ASOIAF. Medivh is obviously NOT a direct ripoff of three-eyed raven, but considering that he turns into a crow and appears in people's dreams, I think he was PARTLY influenced by ASOIAF. Similarly, Lich King is NOT a 1:1 copy of three-eyed raven who is also stuck on a throne in the middle of a frozen wasteland, however, I think the three-eyed raven partly inspired the character of the Lich King. Similarly the White Walkers partly inspired the character of the Lich King. Combine the idea of the three-eyed raven and a white walker and you more or less got the Lich King. Not a 1:1 copy, but the similarities are very obvious.

If there's one examply of a direct copy from ASOIAF to Warcraft then it is this:
>frozen wasteland
>undead army
>commanded by another undead guy with a blue glow their eye
All this in the same package. It's found both in ASOIAF and Warcraft III and considering how Warcraft III has a mission called
>A Symphony of Frost and Flame
which is very similar to
>A Song of Ice and Fire
I am convinced that this is a little nod to the fans by the blizzard to say how they were inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire. Do you deny this or not?
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No. 8177
Why are you guys discussing lore when the ripoff is obviously the composition and framing?

It could be green trolls and an manticore flying in the got trailer, and it'd still be a ripoff, cinematography wise.
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No. 8178
>>8177
Yeah I got no problem saying that's the case. However, considering how the whole aesthetic of Wrath of the Lich King trailer is basically a copy/paste from ASOIAF I really don't see it as a big deal. I mean, GoT source material influenced WotLK so no winder they look so similar. They pretty much influenced each other.
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No. 8179
>>8176
>irrelivant stuff
>direct oppostion of your words.
Hmm.

>Even though the trailer of WotLK takes place in a frozen wasteland that is very similar to the ASOIAF and how in the Wrath of the Lich King game the Scourge is very much present in the Northrend.
Yes, this is what I saying - one, concretic of many trailers and videos and things that related to Scourge. Majority of scougre during all games and events placed in lands of Fallen Lordearon and nearby lands. All undead who broke from scourge start in Tirisfal, all most important events happened in Andoral and other villages in towns. One of the most epin and known memes happen in Stratholm, and it is one of the most important Scouge stronholds where was actual Scourge capital where Kel'Thusad ruled this lands untill Arthas go in his expedition to other part of world. And a lot of important plot events even of WotLK happening in eastern lordearon, place where Death Knights start and corrupting lands in New Avlaon or how this region was called in eastern plaguelands. Basicly plaguelands, fall of lordaron, march of scourge to lands of high elves is one of the most epin and most known events that as much important, as events in Northren.
But this GoT guys taked this concretic part that much their needs - of cource, since in GoT there not even near anything as things I posted above, so they ripped off this concretic trailer that mach they needs for ripping off.

>I don't even claim to be ripped off from ASOIAF like some spider kingdom what whatnot.
I tried to say to you, that there no actual connection between Northen lands beyond wall in GoT that rip-off scotland and Northrend in warcraft, exept fact that they are cold. There no Ethernal winter for whole world irregular, there no wall in warcraft also. Northrend and North lands are as much different as they possibly be can in fantazy cold lands.

>because the combination of frost, undead and blue glowing eyes is just a "fantasy cliche"
Yes, glowing undead is classic, like GLOWING MAGIC that make them glow, even in might and magic sometimes, that I posted above and you just pretended this post not exist. And cold is one of types of this magic in warcraft, avalible adittionaly with other ones and not all undead glowing like that, but GoT creators directly ripped off moment where lich king used his forst magic powers. Of cource they not ripping off moments where somebody use unholy, or places that show boold and rire in burning startholm, because this not match their needs. They taked perfect moment and ripped it off.

>were pretty obviously influenced
I don't see it as obvious even any near.
> into a crow and appears in people's dreams
He appears one in dream of orc character who always see magic dreams, in other part he just act like regular guy. He is opposite of the eyed raven from GoT.
> Lich King is NOT a 1:1 copy of three-eyed raven who is also stuck on a throne in the middle of a frozen wasteland
No he is not, because his role and his condition is different, and Warcraft just continue plot lines it already created.

>Similarly the White Walkers partly inspired the character of the Lich King
...and none sscourge, non liches look anything what was in got but even much more reminded same shit from MM.

>frozen wasteland
>undead army
>commanded by another undead guy with a blue glow their eye
Hmm is this time when Sandro cheated Crag Heg and other heroes like that guy from FROZEN MOUTIANS of Bracada to make him artifats so he can become ruuler of Deyja, or you about when Necromancers help conquering frozen higlands from barbarians to Archibald Ironfist?

>which is very similar to
One meme line in game which may, but also what may not be a reffernce - the only "real" proof you got, while I have direct visual ripoff.
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No. 8180
>>8177
This. Finn just saying that warcraft before ripoffed GoT. But I poiting out that he has no any proofs of that exept his foggy assumptions that very easy to refute
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No. 8182
>>8180
You're fucking ridiculous.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/A_Symphony_of_Frost_and_Flame
>The name is possibly inspired by the fantasy series "A Song of Ice and Fire" written by George R. R. Martin.

Do you at least admit that this might be a reference?
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No. 8184
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Is it really that far-fetched idea that there might be some influence from ASOIAF to Warcraft? No change at all?
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No. 8189
>>8179
Honestly it seems pretty obvious the writers of WC were reading things like ASOIAF and that trailer isn't even a 1:1 thing. Also Blizzard is a shit company particularly around warcraft. They actually bothered to sue the makers of Homeworld: Cataclysm to use the word "Cataclysm" in their shitty warcraft game--despite the fact that Relic made theirs many years before. So Blizzard ripping people off like GRRMartin is no surprise.
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No. 8190
>>8182
>The name is possibly inspired by the fantasy series "A Song of Ice and Fire" written by George R. R. Martin.

You found only GoT metion on this wiki made by fans and even this just someone assumption
Did you know that warcraft 3 have like 25 DIRECT references to Mony Pyton. So, Warcraft Rip off monty pyton or inspired by it?

>>8184
1.some guy sleep in tentacles. Funny, more remind me of Lotr undead guys
2.White frozen mummy, which todd howard directly ripped off for Elder Scrolls 5
3.Pieces of armor trapped in ice with soul of fucking orc shaman/warlock that used only as clickbait

>>8189
Did you know maybe that Blizzard who made Warcraft 3 and Activision-blizzard who made cataclysm are like different companies, and that current warcraft are absoluetly different from one it was?
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No. 8194
>>8190
Maybe Todd Howard just used these "generic fantasy cliches" just like the Warcraft devs did instead of directly copying anyone?

Maybe GoT directors used the generic "dragon flying over an army" fantasy cliche that we've all seen dozens of times before? Yeah that must be the case. No chance they copied anyone.

Maybe Starcraft and Warcraft didn't copy Warhammer at all and just used the generic visual style known from Judge Dredd and other fictions with over-the-top shoulder pads.
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No. 8196
>>8168
These youtube comments are fucking gold

>Lich Lord : check.
>Army of the dead : check.
>Undead dragon : check.
>Icy theme : check.
>Accept the truth, GOT rip-off WoW

>always thought it was obvious.
>the North=Northrend
>Night King=Lich King
>white walkers=death knights
>wights=zombies
>undead army=scourge
>Viserion=Frostwyrm/Sindragosa
>afaik, they got ahead of the books in GoT and now have to pull stuff out their behinds to continue the show^^

Don't these people understand that these are all just common fantasy cliches? Lol it's just a coincidence that they seem so familiar!
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No. 8198
>>8194
A lot of Starcraft itself was also chiefly inspired by a sort of Alien and Predator movies thing.
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No. 8200
>>8198
Yeah, that's actually pretty cool. I really like the Marines vs Xenomorphs vs Predators style of "balance". I'm kind of glad blizzard didn't just copy/paste Tau because Tau is lame as fuck imo :D Would've been cool if protoss was even more "predator" like.
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No. 8201
>>8200
wasn't starcraft developed by another org and bli$$ just bought it pre-release?
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No. 8202
>>8201
No idea but wouldn't surprise me.
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No. 8203
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Okay make short cut of whole disscution since nobody ever want to try to read my posts was will judge ripped of lare 90s blizzard martin books or not by facts like "2010 Activision lawyers did somethings to homeworld" and not by actual facts.

>1.Blizzard ripped off 3-eyed raven with Medivh who appear in dreams!!
Answer: Medivh was major character before Warcraft III. He appeared in dreams ONLY ONCE in dreams of character who always see magic dreams. There no more similarities - this is just wizard who know more and go to other kings and characters and talk with them directly as a person and there no single similarity with 3-eyed raven which appears in dreams of one boi and there absoluetly no any memes in warcraft with "people who can control animals by psyonic power".
>2.Blizzard ripped off white walkers with scourge!! There a undead in snow!
Answer: There no single similarity between undead from GoT and undead from Warcraft. It like two almost absoluetly direct opposition of current idea, more opposite to White walkers only Might and Magic Necromancer factions. Let's compare them directly:
+White walkers are army of brainless zombies with mystic leaders who only half brainless. Goals of them for most time unclear, they more like Romero Zombie wave just with will go in certain direction and very little amount of magical leaders who direct them.
-Undead Scourge is concretic organisation with concretic goals. It contain many people, agents, necromancers, servants and cultists. Often even lowest memebers of Scourge like ghouls and banchi have intelligence, can talk and interact and they keepts together by magical power that controll their will, or when they broked and some parts of scourge become independed, they start exist as all other factions on free will membership more or less and some of them easely contact with other races of world
+White walkers are go and moving from frozen moutains slowely and when winter comes to world, they want to progress and want to kill it all.
-Undead Scourge organisation which only goal was to support Burning Legion to weak any possible opposition for demon so they can immideatly start operation to destroying major magic sources in world that don't allow them fully conquer Azeroth. But in reality it turned out that it was just play of Ner"Zhul which only goal was to survive and escape from slavery of Kil'Jeden and Archimond. After Arthas killed soul of Ner'Zhul it's only goal become serve Arthas and his mental problems.
+White walkers leadership in ice and they slowely come with winter like frozen mummy zombies
-Undead Scourge leadership is former Kirin Tor mages and cultists who start plague in SUMMER in Lorderon, espessialy in towns of Andoral and Brill in Thirisfal forests and in city of Startholme in northen lands of Lordaeron on border of Quel'Thalas forces. Most of Undead activity included: destruction of hearlands of Lorderon kingdoms, trying on attacks of Guilneas and passing thought Alretac moutians, attacked Quel'thals. All it happened in summer/autum. When Arthas as death knight appeared in Northrend to save soul of Ner'Zhul which is main power and mental source for the main faction of Scourge, he was surprised to see some kinda of local support from another undead faction of Nerubain kingdoms, whol also serve Ner'Zhul
+White walkers all frozen nordic mummies with blue glowing eyes. It directly and only distinct thing that highlight white walkers from just regular "army of dead"
-Undead Scourge have hell lot of different styles. All start from deathknights in original Horde that was created with warlock magig of legion was mostly used unholy spells. Scurge, formed by Kirin Tor mages used full depths of all necromantic death abilities, providing a lot variaty of different types of magic. Blood allow make sacrifices and brutal deathes, cunstruct horrible creature from flesh and bones. Unholy is most important one, which created plagues and turn mortal flesh into undead and like illness spread thought all life, corrupting and changing it do dead without actual death, and frost - magic of cold that provide as most times direct offensive spells, also in some cold-creatures like frost wyrms. Also need to point out, that main color of Undead sumbols and misc stuff during cmapin is violet.
>3.Ner'zul is rip off of that frozen guy from GoT!!
Already existing character, from times way before in warcraft there are even something slightly that may remind GoT even for most crazy GoT fans. His current apperance is continuation of older one, goals of character is logical considering who he is - former orc shaman, who originally because was not very smart felt orcs into slavery of demons, then when tried to opposite, was betrayed by his apprentice Gul'Dan and after fail of war in world of Azeroth, once become leader of orcs and tried to make more portals so orcs can escape from demons on any other world, but failed because Alliance invasion in Darenor and captured by Kil'Jeden and placed in Northrend as some sort of magic ampifire. He not send any crows, not appeared in dreams just have opportunity to command Undead and direct Scourge - whil high ranking Scourge members serve him voluntarily.
>4.Warcraft ripping of GoT map!!!
Absolute bullshit and nonsence, that even fin tacticly forgot about after one of the first posts but I'll another time point out, that GoT map is reversed Britain with Turkey attached to it and this is as obvious as it possibly can. His map on level of map of korean poster from OP. Map of western kingdoms was created way before warcraft 3 and actually very changed, but in fact reversed north and south america. Same as nobody can't find any similarities between Kalimdor and Martin's Turkey, and Northrend which typical northen island-continent on north and Mertin's Scotland that by marin part of his britain, while on that place divided by walls and forests in Warcraft High elven kingdom of Qule'Thlas.
>5.final mission of frozen throne have similar name to book!
Only one name, that may be or may be not refference to this book, nobody in this world exept blizzard devs know. While same time game have a lot direct refferences to monty pyton, pop songs, star trek and other famous franchises and books and culture fenomens, but yep, we will remember only that reffernce that most probably not even a refference and will put it in every post as "evidence"

I tried answering ALL points where was claimed direct rip-off or refference of "GoT". I strongly belivee that even if there was something, it hardly and 100% doubfull and nobody can provide 100% evidence of it. On this I point big ending dot and not care anymore what will be answered on this theme again, since I said everything here about topic and don't want to play game "who answered last is right". And I doubt that anyone actualy know and cares about warcraft enough to provide real disscution, since finnish poster already claimed that he not know actual lore and universe and cause of events good enough and often don't know most important things, that was pointed even in warcraft 1 and 2 manuals, like some characters, broken islands and ethernal storm. I only hope that other people who will be patient enough to read this disscution, or at least this post and find my examples and my answers good enough to agree with mine poition.
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No. 8204
As I see there appeared other posters who not readed disscution at all, with one-liner posts start talk on things that already was disscused a lot and slightly unrelated, like Starcraft things that post american, who I assume one who don't like Warcraft 3 because he don't like graphics of it, so I don't see any reason to continue this disscution, on which I already lost two days of walls of text posting, in which I honestely tried to most detailed provide maximum arguments formy position I listed above.
I wanted to end by saying something bad about GoT since I think this is... bad books and TV series and I absoluetly don't like author, and also to point out that despire that Warcraft was growed from direct insperation from Evil Dead 3 movie and Warhammer Fantasy battles (which also not 100% proofable or GW lawyers already killed blizzard long time ago) at one point of it's existance growed into really interesting, stylish, inspiring and awesome universe, with awesome characters, music, art and gameplay, and that it's Martin who need to learn from Warcraft, that with much less in original and with much more generic fantasy in core created something much more interesting. I can say that I may be only sad that currently warcraft more or less dead, eaten by cancer of it's studio that solde everything, even it's soul to Activision and far-eastern players.

So instead of this, I will end with one single quote with tear-jerking track that for me always associeted with "end of the era"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2KTFflV4Vc

Quiet settles over the Black Morass with the blackened, burning remains of the cursed Portal serving as a solemn reminder of the evil that once stood here. After the long and savage battle, you stand victorious over the tattered remnants of the once mighty Orcish Hordes. Those Orcs that survived the conflict have fled to the northeast in hopes of escaping your vengeance. You allow them their reprieve, knowing that the power of the Horde has been forever broken and that the lands of Azeroth belong to its native sons and daughters once again.
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No. 8207
>>8203
> Answer: There no single similarity between undead from GoT and undead from Warcraft. It like two almost absoluetly direct opposition of current idea, more opposite to White walkers only Might and Magic Necromancer factions. Let's compare them directly:

How do you explain comments like this?
>Lich Lord : check.
>Army of the dead : check.
>Undead dragon : check.
>Icy theme : check.
>Accept the truth, GOT rip-off WoW

>always thought it was obvious.
>the North=Northrend
>Night King=Lich King
>white walkers=death knights
>wights=zombies
>undead army=scourge
>Viserion=Frostwyrm/Sindragosa
>afaik, they got ahead of the books in GoT and now have to pull stuff out their behinds to continue the show^^
These comments are from that WotLK/GoT trailer comparison youtube video. A lot of people seem to agree that there's a clear parellel. However, they seem to think that Warcraft did it first when in reality it was the other way around. When I say Warcraft ripped off ASOIAF I refer to this checklist that people keep posting on youtube etc. It just reminds me of how when Dawn of War came out some blizzard fanboys claimed that it ripped off space marines from StarCraft even though WarHammer 40K did it first.

All the other stuff is just trivial and obviously Warcraft didn't take ther loreshit from ASOIAF. You can even ignore all those things I said about Medivh etc being influenced (not ripped off) by ASOIAF. I just think it's pretty interesting that how Medivh might be influenced by ASOIAF but if you really hate ASOIAF we can just pretend for the sake of this thread that they got nothing in common.
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No. 8208
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>>8207
>How do you explain comments like this?
Oh I claimed already everything abut it five times, or more, I like three times sad that I'll stop repead since I tired of this, of repeating to smae posts
This posts are from peole about this certain trailer, if you want even shorter descriprion of warcraft with like 2 words like if we not on Ernstchan but somewhere in youtube comments or 4chan here you go

>the North=Northrend
  • nothing in common exept fact that they are cold. On north of Eastern kingdoms are forests and elven kingdoms. Alterac moutians that may be "Martin's North" in warcraft just human kingdom. Norhren with it's spider kingdoms and ICE trolls on remote mysterious continent are absolute opposition of Martin's Scotland.
>Night King=Lich King
  • absoluetly nothing in common during warcraft 3, nothingin common between Night King and Arthas as lich king exept role of leader
>white walkers=death knights
  • not a single way in common. Fallen Priests and paladins of warcraft MOST OF WHICH NOT EVEN UNDEAD more close to black knights of like every other fantasy.
>wights=zombies
  • scourge even not used zombies, all "zombie" units in game are neutral monsters. There even no zombies in WotLK trailer that contain ghouls and skeletons and undead warriors.
>undead army=scourge
  • GoT not in any way an "army" but horde of brainless zombies plys 2,5 white walkers. Scourge faction and organisation, that have economy, that build, create, have members and which frations sometimes have relationships with others like any other faction. Nothing in common.
>Viserion=Frostwyrm/Sindragosa
  • Frost Wyrms are only small part of undead flying force and there a lot of them, they are not unique. Arthas' Sindragosa is just cool thing he managed to grab five minutes before put his ass on throne, his horse was more memorable character without memes.

It just happened that in that current trailer they showed Arthas start walking after "dream"+he used magic of frost+it happened in Ice Crown+there was shown arthas' new cool pet which he finnaly want to use and it's big so it happened to mach accidentaly almost perfectly for GoT.

There another Trailer for 1.11 update that also contain undead and a bit of snow. But I doubt that evertying else shown in this cinematic and even one 1% apply to anything in GoT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-xlK8KBEpI

But comments for it's videos most times type just causal WoW players or "I played warcraft 3 campain so I know the lore!!!" type of people. But it is not changing the fact that this trailer even by pure cinematography effects and visuals, as kazah metioned above, ripped off WatLK trailer.
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No. 8209
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>>8207
>we can just pretend for the sake of this thread that they got nothing in common.
They are not or I just say that Martin RIP-offed pic related. Don't play like you making me some sort of "indulgence"
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No. 8210
>>8208
This is just getting really confusing. If you don't see the similarity between ASOIAF and Warcraft then how do you see the similarity between that GoT trailer and Wrath of the Lich King trailer?
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No. 8211
58 kB, 363 × 285
>>8210
>It just happened that in that current trailer they showed Arthas start walking after "dream"+he used magic of frost+it happened in Ice Crown+there was shown arthas' new cool pet which he finnaly want to use and it's big so it happened to mach accidentaly almost perfectly for GoT.

In WotLK happen that was combined all elements that can remotly remind you of GoT and there was not single element that not exist in GoT. There was hell lot of undead trailers and other cinematics in-game that showed different plguelands, brown or grey undead wastelands and plague forests with mushrooms, gaint flying strongholds and green goo combined with blood and tortue devices. Some of Scourge element even reminded me movie "Hellraiser", if you know what about you probably know what I mean. And others take direct insperation from movie based or Lovecraft's Re-Animator, and I will actually belive that devs inspired from this movies a little bit.

And this trailer are one of most known warcraft things, since it was peak of warcraft popularity. There like 14 or 15 million views on youtube only on english language, even on russian it have like 2 or 3 million additionally, and GoT showrunners was like HMM THIS LOOK COOL AND THS LOOK POPULAR! AND THIS SHORT TWO MINUTES ARE PERFECTLY MATCH OUR SSETING!

Tbh I really missing pre-wow Kel'Thusad. He looked more cool and also was not EVIL but was just kind of really assburger mage who was just interested in magic things, was loyal and friendly to people who he liked.
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No. 8213
>>8211
>In WotLK happen that was combined all elements that can remotly remind you of GoT

Yes, exactly. And I think this aspect of WotLK was inspired by ASOIAF. The rest about the Scourge you mentioned has nothing to do with ASOIAF. The Lich King stuff in the northrend however does. That's what I'm trying to say. Everything else about the Scourge is trivial and is obviously not copied from ASOIAF.

>And this trailer are one of most known warcraft things, since it was peak of warcraft popularity. There like 14 or 15 million views on youtube only on english language, even on russian it have like 2 or 3 million additionally, and GoT showrunners was like HMM THIS LOOK COOL AND THS LOOK POPULAR! AND THIS SHORT TWO MINUTES ARE PERFECTLY MATCH OUR SSETING!

Yes, of course it's obvious that GoT guys were influenced by WotLK trailer.

Now, my point. Listen carefully. I give you some timelines.

>1994 - Warcraft I published (not influenced by ASOIAF, no frost zombies)
>1995 - Warcraft II published (not influenced by ASOIAF, no frost zombies and Ner'zhul is just some orc)
>1996 - A Game of Thrones book published
>1997 - A Game of Thrones wins and is nominated for many fantasy book awards, obviously well known book
>1998 - A Clash of Kings book published
>1999 - A Clash of Kings book wins and is nominated for many fantasy book awkwards, even more well known book series
>2000 - A Storm of Swords book published (also HOMM3 Shadow of the Damned with Sandro and shit published)
>2001
>2002 - Warcraft III published (Ner'zhul retrofitted to be trapped on a frozen throne, undead with frost theme etc, ASOIAF influence perhaps?)
>2003 - The Frozen Throne published

Now my point is that during that time between Warcraft II and Warcraft III this super popular fantasy book was released and Blizzard thought HMM THIS LOOK COOL AND THS LOOK POPULAR and decided to bring some ASOIAF influence to their game. That's how they got Northrend with frost undead that you can see in the WotLK trailer.

So just like the GOT guys copied this super popular WOW trailer, similarly I'm pretty sure the Warcraft III devs had read and copied this super popular book series which might explain the uncanny similarities between the stuff seen in WotLK trailer.

You see, to me trying to deny the influence of ASOIAF to Warcraft III sounds as stupid as trying to deny the influence of Warhammer 40K on Starcraft or WotLK influence on that GoT trailer. Yet you keep denying that Warcraft III has nothing in common with ASOIAF and that sounds fucking stupid to me. You get it?
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No. 8215
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If anyone interested there are most short story of events that created scourge

When Khadgar closed great portal, it failed all attempts of Ner'Zhul to create portals from Draenor to fuck off from here. World of Draenor star collapsing into chaotic voids and with even small attempt of using portals Ner'Zhul was immideatly captured by Kil'jaeden
Kil'jaeden absoluetly demolished Ner'Zhul but turned his soul into live battary-clickbait in Azeroth and programmed it to serve directly plans of legion.
During his staying in frozen ice he at first "worked as intended". He corrupted nerubians and mentally contacted with people who played with necromancer magic, like Kel'Thuzad, member of high concul of Kirin Tor. But nobody knowed that actual soul of Ner'Zul was not broken.
So unlike any GoT stuff when Kel'Thuzad appeared to "lich king" it was like
I heared you like necromancy so serve me since I great magical thing and give you greit powers!! We follow greit plane of legion!! (in reality I old sad orc who know what shit happen very soon and follow plan of legion just cause I know how kill Archimond, take new body to my soul and just fuck of from here as far as possible X---DDDD) - t.Ner'Zhul
Hmmm thinking I don't give a shit about plebs anyway 'cause I ultra-nerd guy I just want make deep research in science and magic and this looks like great opportunity okay I will serve you it's better than seerve Antonidas this asshole don't like me anyway.
t.Kel'Thusad
Then, Kel'thusad created cult with other wanna-be necromancers and appeared in island town of Caer Darrow where ruled very rich Barov family. He was like
Did you want know about my new meme cult with magic and shit? Here out free booklet memebership is free I promising for acolytes social equality and eternal life on Azeroth however you need to give me all your monies
And Barov family was like:
Hmm sounds inderesting X---DDDD Here take monies we are now in sect also we can build a giant secret school of necromancy just there on island, nobody care anyway.
Then events of warcraft 3 stated - Kel'Thuzad start spreading plague across Lordaeron creating it in plaguelands slowely. Arthas "killed" him. First demon emmisars start appear. After Arthas was corrupted and ressurected Kel'thuzad they all continue pretend that they serve legion only as instrument.
But then was opportunity - some looser, Illidan, was removed from 10000 of prizon. knowing that he will do everything to show how cool he are Ner"zhul told to Arthas, that arthas will tell to illidan that there a scull of former Illidan's apprentice, Gul'Dan, that one that betrayed Ner'Zhul and falled orcs into slavery of demons and yep that one who rised broken islands but failed to steal shit from Sargeras tomb. Demons used it as artifact, than Illidan just eated it and become half demon, which result defeat of of legion and Death of Archimond.
Absolutely butthurt Kil'jaeden find exeacly same looser Illidan and ordered him to kill Ner'zhul in exchange for GREIT POWER.
Illidan with shame tried to go to Drenor, which during this times was already captured by legion and Illidan with his new aliies thought that nobody will care if he just conquered this lands very fast and he can hide here from Kil'kaeden because he was coward who just want use GREIT POWER for personal use but not kill anybody. But walking into remnats of world in void that already conquered by demons was most iq55 thing ever and Kil'jaeden captured Illidan same as he did with Ner'Zhul. He was given the second chance and with nowhere to run, go in campain to kill Ner'Zhul.
Ner'Zhull feeled it and ordered Arthas
Save me and pick le helmet with my soul and I'll reward you with greait power!! (in reality I want your body since fugging Kil'Jaedan minnions soon rape me in all holes of my old soul and I want fuck off from here to any other world without demons as fast as possible tnx X---DDDDD)
t.mister Orc shaman of Shadowmoon clan, your greates ally

Arthas managed to kill Illidan (I don't like twist that he SURVIVED with burning crusade WoW, they added him just to make more MMO content) and pick up helemt...SPOILERS but when he weared off, he managed to kill and orc soul and remnats of his own soul since this guy ABSOLUETLY NUTS PSYHO CRAZY SHIT and in WotLK he is finnaly awakening.
It is brilliant moment, I not liked how it tuned out and actually want if ending was oppened since WHAT CAN DO THIS CRAZY PSYCHO WITHOUT ANY GOAL AND SOUL WITH MOST POWERFULL MAGIC AND ARMY AND AZEROTH??? OH MY GOOOOD....

le end
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No. 8216
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>>8194
>Maybe Todd Howard just used these "generic fantasy cliches" just like the Warcraft devs did instead of directly copying anyone?

There, in TES5 same as in trailer of GoT season 5 you may find absoluetly direct insperations, unlike warcraft 3 where you will not see any of them. Adittionaly, while Warcraft continued it's already created plots, same as with cyrodiil in tes4, skyrim in TES5 and it's lore was drammaticly changed, retconned and moved.

During Tes3-times lore by Krikbride Skyrim was more like not giant skandinavia with vikings, but more like some sort of mongolian higland deserts mixed with some nordic nations and also with some wierd shit like brid-dinosaurs and the Reach, that was place of constant political instability and filled with different types of nations and religions. Filled with Direnni ruins and other crazy shit, there was no and Dwemer ruind or other generic crap todd howard put out of his ass. Alduin was just nordic name of akatosh, and he, like dragons was just metaphoric of the time. Things like Alduin will eat world was equal to just saying "nothing is ethernal". Considering that by Kirkbride time is not even can break but also not lienar in space, with yokuda past - tamriel present - akavir future, northen continent of Atmora was freezed in time, if we imagine world of Nirn like something of Lobachebsky geometry and put at north pole some sort of black hole that change time and space.

All draugr who was before just cursed cannibals of times or arrivel from atmora on soltsheim, had red eyes and moved with ultra speed like some kinds of shadows, become just regular skyrim undead mummies frozen with blue eyes directly copieng GoT even by how they look, and Skyrim kinda came out after first season of series if I not mistaken. Of cource todd howard removed all asian things, most of reach memes turning them into just FUCKING NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES WHAT, destroyed one of major cities absoluetly like that peninsula in GoT, added dragons as animals just and alduin as MAIN BIG BAD BOSS, with memes about that before nords have dragon cults. Also directly copiend for whiterun one of cities from Tolkien if I not mistaken.

I also so shure he did it because they did exeacly thing with tes4 back then - instead of making lore cyrodiil, he just made it MEDIVAL EUROPE THAT ATTACKED BY ANRY DEMONS FROM LAVA LANDS and in one of interviews they directly said they wanted to make something like "lotr" that with movies was popular as fuck back then. Fuck todd howard and his friends.
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No. 8217
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>>8213
>And I think this aspect of WotLK was inspired by ASOIAF
Wotlk just accidentaly combined all elements in it's trailer that may reomtly remind you of GoT. Before, when all this elements wasseparated and in pair with others, you need to be really crazy to assume that any of this was inspired by GoT 100%
Oh, magic of frost by former mage of Kirin Tor, what original thing that was certanly was only in GoT! (this is irony)

I think that when they did last missions that was mostly in northrend, around arthas and his travel to northrend they relised "hey, this look a bit like this new book! Probably be funny to put reffernce to it!" - and northing more. And even that I may doubt sine name of mission directly represents of what happened, and I don't recall in GoT any demoed night eves with army of Naga warriors and high evles fire/sun magic against army of spiders and undead insects and necromancer acolytes withgiant flying citadels

>Yet you keep denying that Warcraft III has nothing in common with ASOIAF and that sounds fucking stupid to me.
It fucking stupid that you don't provide me any solid proofs of that. I see this that at end of TFT it just accidentally happen to match some things from martin books. For different reasons, by different plots and with compleatly different background, but if you will see just 2 minuets las of TFT or 2 minutes of WotLK trailer you may assume that "this looks like GoT!", however, it brokes IMMIDEATLY if you know anything about what happening besides this 4 minutes of like 25 hours of all warcraft games.

In Starcraft we can directly visually see shots with elements directly taked from alien, like in brood war trailer that numbers on gun, or we can direcly see just copied clip from Starship Troopers movie in brood war, and whole this war with zerg and marines and even in some ways protosses was obiously directly copied elements from Starship Troopers book, that may say you, was OPPOSITE TO STARSHIP TROOPERS MOVIE, since verhoven wanted filmed different, but when ordered to make movie based on book, created absoluetly Ironic invertion of book because he was opposite of main book ideas.
I can not say moments where Starcraft directly copied WH40k. But it's well known, that WH40K itslef besides just be cover on classic fantasy, also DIRECTLY STEALED hell lot of shit from Dune, and yes yes, Starship Troopers book which also heavely used StarCraft. So all this crap about StarCraft vs. Warhammer 40k is lame thing considering that both media just stealed from same sources.
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No. 8220
What if some WC3 dev who read the books just named the chapter because "let's make ebin reference to fantasy book" without any connection to the plot?

It happens all the time in video games, and from watching a developer commentary on WC3, the mapmakers had a lot of unsupervised freedom in their work.
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No. 8228
37 kB, 446 × 599
Cap'n Obvious: Russian got trolled by Finlan. I skimmed the thread and the Russian is right.
RIP Blizzard
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No. 8229
>>8228
Yep. And also Martin stole his concept of a cool & icy undead from Moorcock (namely the second Corum trilogy), who, in turn, probably lifted it from some Celtic myth.
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No. 8231
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>>8217
>I can not say moments where Starcraft directly copied WH40k

What about the blue space marines in over-the-top power armour?
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No. 8233
Tbh, I don't see either really ripping each other off, trailer or lore or whatever. This whole thing seems like people looking for something to be assblasted about.
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No. 8239
>>8233
Do you at least see the parellels with these?
>Warcraft, Warhammer Fantasy
>Starcraft, Warhammer 40K
Considering that Blizzard originally even wanted to make a warhammer game but to cut the long story short didn't get the license and ended up making their own version of "warhammer".

Blizzard did a better job with their ripoff games than any official warhammer game ever did so I'm glad they made them but denying the outside influence is just beyond my understanding. It's not about being assblasted about anything.
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No. 8251
>>8239
Well, you are most likely right about the Warhammer and Blizzard stuff but the GoT stuff is nonsense. Well, at least bulky marines and green Orcs might or might not be inspired by copied from WH.
t. everything but an expert
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No. 8261
>>8251
You mean when you see this video you think GoT and Warcraft are not influenced by each other?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gx_dAaiLWE
and the comments like this:
> Lich Lord : check
> Army of the dead : check
> Undead dragon : check
> Icy theme : check.
> Accept the truth, GOT rip-off WoW
These parallels are all just mere coincidences? No influence one way or another?
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No. 8268
1,2 MB, 576 × 1350
>>8261
I mean it also basically checks off the Ice Age Saga from MtG lore and it's very different from both of those. The strokes are too broad to say either one blatantly ripped off the other.
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No. 8271
>>8268
I'm not familiar at all with MtG but does it really tick all the boxes the same way?

I mean, to me the idea that Lich King was inpired by ASOIAF Night King is as obvious as Arthas and frostmourne being influenced by the whole King Arthur and the Excalibur myth. It's quite straight forward in both cases and considering that when Warcraft III was developed ASOIAF was a new book blockbuster fantasy book series so it's not that far fetched to think the developers read it and thought it was cool and got inspired. If ripoff is too strong word then fine let's just use influence or inspiration instead but to me it seems like people are trying to deny any ASOIAF influence on warcraft which is just bizarre to me.
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No. 8272
>>8271
Yes. It can be a stretch with undead dragon, but everything else is very easy to slot in. The overarching story is the conflict between Kjeldor and Balduvia as well as the undead army of Lim-Dûl who also became the immortal necromancer he was by acquiring a powerful ancient artifact that slowly consumed him.
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No. 8273
>>8272
I don't know anything about MtG but I wouldn't be surprised if Warcraft was influenced by that as well. Would be silly to deny that. But when it comes to A Song of Ice and Fire influencing Warcraft, the last mission name even references that book series. So to me it's obvious that they had read it and thought it's pretty good and likely were inspired by it when they were designing the Lich King.
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No. 8274
>>8273
The point I'm making is that it's where the similarities end. They're only similar sounding when you talk about them in broad strokes like that, and it's what I'm seeing with lots of the accusations of X ripping of Y or Y ripping off X.
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No. 8275
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>>8231
What you just see in post 2nd picture, which is fucking one of the covers of classic Starship Troopers book? I not even forcing you to read it, just saying that in book MANKIND FUCK YEAH, marines dropping in ultra epin SPACE MARINE ARMOR DIRECTLY DROM SPACE and with NUKLEAR GRENEDES KILL ALIENS JUST BECAUSE HUMANS THOUGHT ALL ALIENS ARE ENEMIES

And in this book BUGS HAVE INTELLIGENSE, THEY EVEN HAVE THEIR ARMOR IN GUNS, LIKE TYRANIDS AND ZERG THEN IN BOTH WARHAMMER AND STARCRAFT? THERE ALSO OTHER ALIENS, WHO HAVE SOME PSYCHIC ABILITIES, AND THEY THIN AND TALL, KINDA LIKE PROTOSS AND KINDA LIKE ELDAR, NOT DIRECTLY BUT FUCK.

I'll even repost this pics for you again. I'll even point out that how different my structure SC and WH armors is, you can clearly see it in SC2 trailer. And when SC come out, Toilet-marines aka Ultramarines was not that much forced, during first and 2nd edition they was not main forcus of warhammer like it will happen more later. Blood Angels and Dark Angels with their black armor was more popular indeed. It is 3rd edition that come AFTER starcraft was with Blanche art, OVER THE TOP GRIM DARKNESS IN DARK FUTURE and it be not coincedence that Warhammer at that time was INSPIRED BY STARCRAFT.

Adittionaly, starcraft during different development stages was different and they come out to what they came not because warhammer, but because some othr RTS games who had better graphics and blizzard relised that Warcraft 2 clone in 1997 would be total fail.

Funny that in times when Starcraft came out
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No. 8276
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>>8220
Yeas, this I talking about, considering how in game there a lot other refferences to Monty Pyton, Lord of the Rings and Star Trek, much more and much more directly. And pandas, And adittionaly, this name of map may be not even a easter egg, since it's name different than name of book and represent what happen in mission.
A Symphony of Frost and Flame - it name just because FIRE GREEN ELF DEMON (can find something like this in GoT, eh?) versus prince arthas with hice frost magic, this all. This name just similar to structure of book but this may be coincedence.

>>8228
>>8229
Thanks for support. I really arguing not because I want arguing of any sorts, I really just think that in current disscution I'am right and if you readed my posts you know that I really don't see single similarity between warcraft and GoT universes.

>>8268
I already said to him that warcraft for example have much more similarities with Might and Magic sseting than GoT >>8160

But I think that GoT producers really ripped off trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyua3Z6zKzQ

>>8239
>Warcraft, Warhammer Fantasy
This is more likely than anything you said, but again, there no direct proofs of that and this applyed only TO FIRST GAME. First warcraft have some vibes in atmosphere that reminded me fantasy battles of the time. It was also much more dark, but again, by narrative and what happened like ISOLATED KINGDOMS AND ARMY OF DARKNESS FROM SWAMP it really more remind me Evil Dead 3 movie just without Ash and army of darkness replaced by mongol orkish hordes. Since warcraft 2 tone, and world, and even presentation of orcs changed with narrative and I don't see any similarities with WH.
Things they are INSPIRED is more or less just design of units from 4th edition, there are with some art real similarities. Green orks with brown pigs look really similar, some other units and events too and there most probably blizzard was inspired by art like pic1. However, by everything else they are different and feels absoluetly different. And don't forget that fantazy battles is in many ways very classic fantazy and generic as fuck. Just see fucking map of it! This all tells you person who for long time was huge fan of Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40k.
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No. 8278
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>>8213
>Now, my point. Listen carefully. I give you some timelines.
Did you know that between warcraft 2 and warcraft 3 there a lot stuff happened in universe? Some ideas, some books, some videogames. Games was cancelled by blizzard provided hell lot of sotries how everything happen to go in warcraft 2. Even thought Warcraft Adventures Lord of the Clans very unfinished game and was not released, it is avalible. Kel'Thusad adventure game was cancelled too, sadly.
They come to ideas in warcraft 3 in not a single day. Already in first addon to warcraft 2 tone and narrative changed, added a lot of lore stuff, including metion of things like Drenei, types of magic, legion of demons. During all this years between warcraft 2 and 3 they slowely builded their universe, and even for us it in many ways lost, for devs it was really GOLDEN AGE OF WARCRAFT, the age when they developed universe very deep and interesting. And if you familliar a little bit how universe evolved during this days, you will see how devs come to things they did in warcraft 3 naturally, from their own thoughts and ideas.
Yes, undead Scourge is come from that Warcraft 2 death kinghts and was evolved to what it is in warcraft 3. Yes, thrall character was not from nothing and has it's own game and story of life. Yes, Medivh not something just inspired by GoT by any mean and always was one of the most important characters in saga.

I really advise you drop martin books for once, and read Rise of The Horde, The Last Guardian, play this game about thrall and even read book about arthas. Even better than you read warhammer chronicles, which is compilation of lore by current view of it by modern blizzard that I dion't like but still this books is awesome. Most of this inspired by stuff that they created back between 1996 and 2002, and which a lot of it was sadly not relised like video games because multiple reasons.
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No. 8279
>>8275
3e was more of a rules overhaul than a flavour one. Lots of 2e art was still being used in 3e and later. RT to 2e was when it shifted from goofy to more grimdark.
t. used to have 2e

>>8276
>But I think that GoT producers really ripped off trailer
And all you have is your gut feeling. Trailers aren't long. If you want to show that there is snow, a dragon and an army involved, then it's a better use of time to show them in the same scene than in three different ones. The things you see as being copied are just things that I see as being generic set pieces used in these kinds of shortform videos. You can use the exact same scene design with different props and have it rip off something from an entirely different genre. Replace the zombies with an army and the dragon with a starfighter and you have a science fiction trailer that isn't ripping off Warcraft. If GoT is doing it, and their lore contains similar elements then yes, they're going to look similar but it doesn't mean that one is ripping off the other. It's just grasping at straws tbh and I don't even like GoT.
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No. 8280
>>8275
>>8276
I got no problem admitting that Warhammer was influenced by Starship Troopers, Alien films etc. I'd even say that Tyranids is pretty much their version of xenomorphs. They did expand on top of that but the basic princible seems like a ripoff to me. Similarly the Zerg from Starcraft is very much inspired by Warhammer Tyranids to a point of in my eyes they're a direct ripoff. Xenomorph looking race controlled by an overmind? Applies both to the Zerg and the Tyranids. All this while Blizzard as a company originally wanted to create a game set in Warhammer universe but ended up making their own version of it in the end. The huge influence from Warhammer ot Warcraft is undeniable. So did Starcraft influence Warhammer 40K? Well I'm no expert on that but what I do know is that the Dawn of War games ripped off their HUD straight from the Starcraft games, so in that sense at least Warhammer 40K was highly influenced by Starcraft. No problem admitting that.

Similarly I got no problem admitting that the GoT trailer ripped off Warcraft. HOWEVER the whole atmosphere you see in the GoT trailer was first done by ASOIAF, so if we strip away all this:
>undead army (ASOIAF did it first)
>commanded by Lich/Night King with a blue glow in his eyes (ASOIAF did it first)
>happens in some frozen wasteland (ASOIAF did it first)
In that case, all we have left is a fucking dragon flying above an army. The most generic shit imaginable. So if we accept your idea that Warcraft III did not copy the visual style of the undead from ASOIAF but rather just used "generic fantasy tropes" then in that case I have no idea how you can be mad at the GoT trailer apparently "ripping off" Warcraft since the only thing they got in common are some generic fantasy tropes.

I still think that during the time Warcraft III was developed the devs had read the books GoT is based upon and were highly inspired by that. What baffles me is that you try to deny that.
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No. 8323
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Hmmm if we go to comments, there are funny one

>A Song of Ice and Fire may have implanted the concept of the dead in the frozen, northern wastes, but it never fleshed it out before Blizzard created the Lich King. The Night King isn't even present in A Song of Ice and Fire -- that's all on the TV series Game of Thrones and Martin chose to be cryptic about the legendary figure of the "Night's King," but that is very different from the show's self-created villain. The point is, Blizzard did this first. The imagery and all of it belongs to Blizzard. This I am saying not because I believe D&D are copying Blizzard, but rather in the case of someone trying to make the argument that Blizzard copied Martin, which certainly isn't the case. The threat of the undead and the White Walkers (the Others) is still a largely unexplored and barely touched topic in A Song of Ice and Fire and the last book, "A Dance With Dragons" came out in 2011 a few years after Blizzard came out with Wrath of the Lich King in 2008, and furthermore, the preceding book "A Feast for Crows" (2005) doesn't even touch the Wall or mention anything going on in the North or Beyond the Wall, and finally, the book before that "A Storm of Swords" (2000) simply ended with Jon becoming the Lord Commander of the Night Watch, and in the time between "A Storm of Swords" and "A Feast for Crows" Blizzard had developed and released both Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos (2002) and its expansion pack The Frozen Throne (2003). So, once and for all, before anyone tries to claim that Blizzard stole the undead from Martin, they absolutely did not.

>>8279
>RT to 2e was when it shifted from goofy to more grimdark.
2 aws GRIMDARK on words and by some art, but a lot of this was still in many ways really goofy by look. And to more late time they got proper artists, majority of time of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition most of the art and things was more funny and bright. At year of release of Starcraft, starcraft honestely looked more mature and much more artisticly developed. With 3rd edition and ULTRAGRIMDARK Blanche 10/10 art they of cource turned warhammer I love. Well I love RT too but for different reasons X--DDD

> Lots of 2e art was still being used in 3e and later.
I be no suprised if they still use 2nd edition art. GW was often lazy in that therm. But better than even they used 2nd edition art, since with 7 and 8 editions they turned in by style.. not very good digital art in my opinion.

>t. used to have 2e
Good for you, awesome! I have only digital one, I don't think it was any avalible in russia back then, maybe only in big rich cities as moscow. I'd wanted assasins and titans. Also, Epic40000 looked cool concept. Better than modern Apocalypse where you need to buy, paint and transfer 900000 full-scale models. Ironlcly that only thing that remained in my collection since I dropped it is not painted standeart baneblade.

>And all you have is your gut feeling.
No, I honestely think they really way too similar to say this way. Some shots and moves beyond something generic, and considering that characters in this scenes accidentaly look very similar it creating effect that spotted not only I, but like eveyone who watcher this trailer and familiar with warcraft.
And I say this trailer (WoW one) is not that generic. I'd not say I so big fan of lore and world at this times of a game, but this concretic moment is direct continuation of old story and also a conclusion that need to be with open end in my opinion. If you know whole story, and characters, and arthas father who was "narrator" in trailer... it something that really very hard to describe.
Rising lich king, which problem is not the he some kind of undead leader, but he killed his father, he killed HIS OWN SOUL IN FORM OF CHILD OF HIMSELF, even killed Ner'Zhul. This is most evil and most empty creature I even seen in fiction. And most important part of this trailer not some kind of undead and "cool dragon", but fact that they put this word if king Therenas to his son on background. I fucking cried, really without memes when first time seen it. It was last thing blizzard ever created in their existance that HAD FUCKING SOUL. This is one of the best trailers and conclusion of most important classic warcraft story. None martin books, none martin based TV series ever achived same size of soul and tear jerking. Compare to this 2 fucking minutes everything martin did is so empty and 2 dimensional. I so sad that warcraft ended to be... what it is. Warcraft deserved quality tv series (forgot this new horrible warcraft capeshit movie) because I think that Warcraft in times of before Wow one of the most quality, interesting and complex enough same time universe, that despire using stamps rised far, far above from Tolkien-Conan stuff and same time not just rip off of real history with fantazy elements. Only Tes3-times elder scrolls Kirkbride universe may beat it when I think about it. Might and Magic is more of itslef things :D

>>8280
>I got no problem
Please, please read my previous post STARSHIP TROOPERS MOVIE and STARSHIP TROOPERS BOOKS are absoluetly different things. And both of WH40k and Starcraft very heavely rip offed this book. In book "insects" have guns, they have armor and they controlled by very samrt guys in deep of planet. Both Tyranid and Zerg concept was taked from there. Same as Space marines, mankind fuck yeah etc.

Did you seen tyranids and genestealers of WH40k in times of early editions? No? Here you go. I think I don't need to say how more quality and realistic was Starcraft in that therm back in time.

>I still think that during the time Warcraft III was developed the devs had read the books GoT is based upon and were highly inspired by that. What baffles me is that you try to deny that.
People may read what they want, but it was not inspired by it. Read first quote of this post and this post again >>8278

Warcraft ripping off GoT is absolute nonsence. Funny that Got lore much more bland, empty and non-existen compare to warcraft even during late 90s but this is another talk
GoT ripping off this trailer - most obvious thing in like ever
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No. 8359
>>8323
I meant starship trooper (the book) and aliens films.

>Did you seen tyranids and genestealers of WH40k in times of early editions?
Yes, they're described in the first edition released in 1987.

Anyway, so if Starcraft didn't ripoff Warhammer 40K in your opinion, did Warcraft rip off Warhammer then? When Blizzard got sued by Gameworkshop and Blizzard had to make some changes in their game between Warcraft III and the Frozen Throne do you think that was all unjustified?

How about the fact that Blizzard devs clearly were aware of the Warhammer universe since they originally wanted to make a game set in that universe. Do you think it's a mere coincidence that Blizzard ended up making their own parallels to Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K, called Warcraft and Starcraft?

Also, since you happen to know a lot of the warcraft lore and development, can you pinpoint when they decided to turn ner'zhul into Lich King that is trapped on a frozen throne? Like, roughly which year that was?
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No. 8368
>>8359
>Anyway, so if Starcraft didn't ripoff Warhammer 40K in your opinion, did Warcraft rip off Warhammer then?

This is becoming some sort of circus. Did you even tried to read things I posting for you multiple times?

>>8276 - here, last answer. At this point I can just poitiong out you to previous posts since I probably answered anything I can.

>Yes, they're described in the first edition released in 1987.
Look at them in previous post from 2nd edition, valuable one at time of development starcraft and it's release and thing what look kinda like real horrifying creatures and what look like christmas toy.

>since they originally wanted to make a game set in that universe
This is rumors you will never find even who originally created this rumors.
>Do you think it's a mere coincidence that Blizzard ended up making their own parallels to Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K
Read my posts about starship troopers book, read my post about warcraft and warhammer fantasy above.

>which year that was?
Who knows? I'am not a blizzard dev. They wanted to make adventure games about many characters, involving Kel'Thuzed. Thrall one was started in 1996. But it's development (technical part and art done by one infamous russian studio) become total hell and in 1998 after it was in development way too long and adventure like this already become something old whole "adventures" project was cancelled.
Same, in time of 1998-1999 warcraft 3 and world of warcraft projects already was separated in two games.
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No. 8373
>>8368
> >since they originally wanted to make a game set in that universe
> This is rumors you will never find even who originally created this rumors.

https://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow
>Patrick Wyatt, the Producer on Warcraft, explains in a lengthy "making of" feature that some at Blizzard had wanted to make a Warhammer game, but things just didn't work out.
>Allen Adham hoped to obtain a license to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition", Wyatt says. "Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft..."

Literally the first link you get by googling Warcraft Warhammer.

The reason why I asked about Ner'zhul is because I don't think he had anything to do with frost before Warcraft III, so when you say Ner'zhul as a character already existed in Wacraft I and II then that doesn't change anything what I said about Lich King being influenced by ASOIAF. In my opinion the whole reason why they stucked him on a frozen throne is because they retconned him to be more ASOIAF-like to get that frosty atmosphere for their undead in WC3.
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No. 8375
>>8373
>Literally the first link you get by googling Warcraft Warhammer.
By the end of this thread I'll teach you read.
Yes, "warcraft in first place wanted to be warhammer fb game" - only rumor. And then re-read again my post about warhammer fb and warcraft where I litteraly said same as this guy did about art style.

>The reason why I asked about Ner'zhul is because I don't think he had anything to do with frost before Warcraft III, so when you say Ner'zhul as a character already existed in Wacraft I and II then that doesn't change anything what I said about Lich King being influenced by ASOIAF. In my opinion the whole reason why they stucked him on a frozen throne is because they retconned him to be more ASOIAF-like to get that frosty atmosphere for their undead in WC3.

Oh my god. Every time you start from the fucking begining. You know what? Think as you think. I tired to make posts that you even not bother to read to then ask litteraly the same.
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No. 8380
>>8375
It's really hard to understand your broken English sometimes so I'd really appreciate if you clarified what you tried to say here:
>Yes, "warcraft in first place wanted to be warhammer fb game" - only rumor. And then re-read again my post about warhammer fb and warcraft where I litteraly said same as this guy did about art style.
What? Are you saying it's only a rumor that they wanted to make a Warhammer game but because it would've been too much of a hassle they ended up making their own ripoff universe instead? Because that's how I understood that but I'm not sure what you actually meant.

>Oh my god. Every time you start from the fucking begining. You know what? Think as you think. I tired to make posts that you even not bother to read to then ask litteraly the same.
Yes, because you start writing about the retconned lore when I'm talking about the developer decisions.
I mean, between Reign of Chaos and and the Frozen Throne they decided to change Chaos to Fel. It always confused me as a kid and when in the Frozen Throne you go to the Outlands and suddenly the Chaos Orcs are called Fel Orcs instead. I always thought Chaos sounded cooler than Fel but then later I heard they changed that because they were ripping off Warhammer too much so it all started to make sense. Similarly they made other changes like High Elf to Blood Elf etc to ensure they won't get into any further legal trouble. Sure, they made it all "make sense" within the lore but they only did that due to the copyright issues. So if you tried to dispute this example of warcraft ripping off warhammer by spamming lore then I would just ignore it because it's about the lore, not about the developer decisions.

So that's why it's kind of silly when you write something like
>This is more likely than anything you said, but again, there no direct proofs of that and this applyed only TO FIRST GAME
when even the 3rd game was still ripping off Warhammer.
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No. 8394
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>>8380
>Because that's how I understood that but I'm not sure what you actually meant.
[i]Warcraft Rip-offed some visual elements of Warhammer FB almost directly back in early 90s[/i] - obvious fact.
[i]Warcraft in first place was planned as warhammer game but they scrapped idea because not achived agreement with games workshop[/i] - rumor without any concretic evidences. Might be so, might be not.
[spoiler]I more interested in fact that original warcraft gameplay wise direct improved Dune 2 rip-off, back than it was more important meme tbh[/spoiler]

>I mean, between Reign of Chaos and and the Frozen Throne they decided to change Chaos to Fel
"chaos" orcs furing reign of chaos campain is ones that drinked Mannorot blood again and go crazy. Fel orcs from Outland are same that remain in Draenor during horde invasion into Azeroth. They are main fucking guys in Beyond the Dark Portal addon, and lost of Ner'Zhul is cause they absoluetly finnaly lost to demons and become mutants and slaves in destroyed world. They fel because they already during slow death of Draenor before was ones who mostly become unstable, maroduers, agressive, start have mutations or other things, this why in first invasion they was keeps by Blackhand in Draenor - he can not trust them. During Beyond the Dark Portal campain some of them even betrayed each other, some clans even help humans destry their race just for sake of battle and because they litteraly fighted for blood and for food in dying world.
[i]
You have proven your strength in battle, but none can stand against the combined might of the Horde. We of the Laughing Skull clan, however, seek advantage from the turmoil of this war. With the aid of your strongest warriors, our clan can gain dominance over the northern clans of Draenor. Do not show surprise, Human - only the strongest survive within the Horde. You must secure the passes across the Blade's Edge Mountains and destroy the stronghold of the Thunderlord clan that dwell there. We will supply you with warriors and supplies culled from our villages. In return, we will give you the Book of Medivh, which we seized from Ner'zhul's stronghold before your armies could destroy it. [/i]

>Similarly they made other changes like High Elf to Blood Elf etc to ensure they won't get into any further legal trouble.
For fuks sake, how did you played Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne? Did you not remember how Scourge destroyed thier main magical source of Sunwell? Did you not remember how there followers of Kael'thas that allied with Illidan turn themselfs into blood elves? [b]Do you fucking know that there hell lot of High Elves, not blood evles, high elves that still aliied with alliance in WoW even fucking right now, in 2018? What copyright issues can be in "High elves" therm, or in your absoluetly crazy mind this copyrighted and was created my marting too?[/b]

>when even the 3rd game was still ripping off Warhammer.
Just facepalm. Like litterlay. German above was right - you or trolling me very fat way, or you have mantal issues and fucking shizo, or martin is your fucking boyfirend.
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No. 8399
>>8394
>[i]Warcraft in first place was planned as warhammer game but they scrapped idea because not achived agreement with games workshop[/i] - rumor without any concretic evidences. Might be so, might be not.

I just posted the kotaku link in which the co-founder of blizzard admitted it. That's not enough evidence for you?
>How Warcraft Was Almost a Warhammer Game
>"[Blizzard co-founder] Allen Adham hoped to obtain a license to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition", Wyatt says. "Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal. We had already had terrible experiences working with DC Comics on "Death and Return of Superman" and "Justice League Task Force", and wanted no similar issues for our new game."

And again you start to explain the lore of warcraft which I'm completely aware of when I was talking about developer decisions. The reason why WC3 devs changed Chaos to Fel, High elf to Blood elf, Wyvern to Wind Rider etc was because GameWorkshop was threatening Blizzard with legal action over copyright infringement. Hell, Gryphon Rider even has this quote when you click him multiple times
>"This warhammer costs 40K!"
but it got removed because of this whole copyright infringement issue with GW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45s7Hw6XqdQ
I know all the stuff you wrote about the lore, I'm not ignoring it, but I also know that GW was butthurt towards Blizzard because they thought they were ripping off their Warhammer universe. So blizzard recided to make their Warcraft slightly less Warhammer-like and removed the gryphon rider quote because of this whole thing.

>Just facepalm. Like litterlay. German above was right - you or trolling me very fat way, or you have mantal issues and fucking shizo, or martin is your fucking boyfirend.
lol in the very first comment of this debate I pretty much said the TV-series shat the bet after season 2 and I've read like first two books and thought they're not that great. I've played Warcraft way more than I've spend time doing anything ASOIAF related. However, I'm not so blind blizzard fanboy that I'd defend their product even after the co-founder of Blizzard admits they were hugely influenced by Warhammer. Are you sure you don't have any issues? I mean you even said you cried while watching a fucking WotLK trailer because it's FULL OF SOUL. Sure it's nice and all but it's not [i]that[/i] good. It's just a fucking trailer.
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No. 8410 Kontra
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>>8399
I just posted the kotaku link in which the co-founder of blizzard admitted it. That's not enough evidence for you?
Well, I was not interesting in reading whole this interview, cnosidering that you can't manage to read my post anyway. But I will not admit (like you when you ignoring huge parts of what I said of you absoluetly failed to say anythng) - if he said so, so it be. I never admited that warcraft 1 used a lot insperation of FB of this current editions. However, in your quote he also said that they dropped this idea since they wanted their own game and universe. And I bet you know absoluetly nothing about Fantasy Battles.

> I'm completely aware
You showed absolute and complite ingorance about it. You didn't know even basic things that you may spot by just casualy playing games. To the last post you every time talked total bulshit about High Elves, Fel orcs, copying of map, failing to know what broken islands where tomb of sargeras and other islands close to storm, and etc. etc. etc. You absoluetly incopetent and don't know anything what you talking about. You just searching for links and facts that will proof your point, and often don't know what they mean, what their background, count only on rumors and your stereotypes. If I point out in all itentional mistakes and absolute lack of knowlege you did in this thread by single word, EC will say that my comment too long. Buy when you talk shit - in next post you just tactically "forget it" when I need to repeat and answer to every single one of words I said about.

>Hell, Gryphon Rider even has this quote when you click him multiple times

You want list of other refferences in this joke quotes?

"You're the king? Well, I didn't vote for you." (A reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail.)
"We found a witch! May we burn her?" (Another reference to Monty Python.)
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" (Also a reference to Monty Python and the Holy Grail.)
"A horse kicked me once. It hurt." (And yet another!)
"D'oh!" (A reference to Homer of The Simpsons.)
"Don't ask, don't tell." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask%2C_don%27t_tell)
"Grab your sword and fight the Horde." (A play on the World War I recruitment slogan, "Grab your gun and fight the Hun!")
"Uncle Lothar wants YOU." (A play on the US Military recruitment slogan "Uncle Sam wants YOU" and a reference to Anduin Lothar.)
"'Tis only a flesh wound!" (A reference to Monty Python and the Holy
Grail.)
"This… is… my boomstick!" (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Army_of_Darkness)
"Ah, there's me drink. Get in mah belly!" (A reference to Austin Powers 2.)
"Guns don't kill people, I do! Haha!" (Reference to UHF; a play on NRA's slogan.)
"Don't shoot shoot shoot that thing at me." (Reference to the song "Add It Up" by The Violent Femmes.)
"You'll take me blunderbuss when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!" (Another slogan for gun rights advocates.)
"I shot the sheriff, and the deputy, and your wee doggie, too!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Shot_the_Sheriff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Witch_of_the_West)

This is just three random quotes out of 9000, each of them is refference on something. And from really like hundreds and hundreds of quotes with direct memes you found only one that related to Warhammer (and not even relatedm just word-joke). You may serve as GW lawyer, this assholes already court'ed a lot people, worse only nintendo probably. And whole this noncence with one quote is so bullshit crap, same as your "they ripped off name of mission so they ripped martin book thing!". Don't you even remotly feel how ridicilously it was?

>I mean you even said you cried while watching a fucking WotLK trailer because it's FULL OF SOUL. Sure it's nice and all but it's not that good. It's just a fucking trailer.
This trailer contains actual emotional end to the character for people who readed shit, know all his life and know everything in his mind and what he did. And most important part of this trailer was not all that happening visually, but what in mind he have now and combination with that of words that his father said long time ago. It is called "tragic drama" I supose.
Funny that warcraft not even remotly my favorite universe, espessially during post-vanilla WoW time. I count Kirkbride's TES as one of the best ones. I have like 50 probably Star Wars Expanded Universe books and hell lot of BL warhammer 40k books and during one of my lifetime I spend hell lot of time and monies on miniatures, I even played fucking Apok and had giant imperial guard army.

And now I talking with you - someone who screaming for martin books but claimed that played warcraft more, but proved yourself absoluetly incompetent even with basic things you can find in WC2 manual. Someone who changing themrs and arguments every post, moved to starcraft, after begin proved not know anything about early editions of 40k and it's evolution and don't know anything about Starship Troopers original book moved to Warcraft 1 and start to talk abvious things that no one ever admitted that it used hell lot of shit from FB, but same time most probably you don't know any shit about FB eather and looks like you don't care about anything of this, just want "win in disscution".

>Are you sure you don't have any issues?
Yes, I have. I spend two fucking days talking with troll-demagog. I lost hell lot of time to absoluetly nothing just because I not learned enough ingonre wierdos in internet. You may claim yourself "vicotrios" in this "disscution" since I just too lazy to lost another day on banging my head against the wall
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No. 8414
>>8410
Well, considering that we both agree that GW lawyers were a bunch of assholes, could you at least admit that the reason why in Warcraft III Chaos was changed to Fel, Steamtank to Steam engine, Gyrocopter to Flying machine, Wyvern to Wind Rider, High Elf to Blood Elf etc was because of the GW laywers being pissed at Blizzard so the Blizzard staff retconned their game to be less generic? Could you at least give me that much instead of spamming out lore that somehow explains why the dwarven steamtank turned into a steam engine in the Frozen Throne expansion?
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No. 8422
359 kB, 704 × 784
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>>8414
>was because of the GW laywers being pissed at Blizzard

>Could you at least give me that much instead of spamming out lore that somehow explains why the dwarven steamtank turned into a steam engine in the Frozen Throne expansion?
How I can answer on your "questions" when they are most times incorect in first place? Like how I can answer on "change from half elves to blood elves" when there was no a change - Blood Elves are one of groups. Name of race basicly remained, and there a lot non-blood high elves you can encounter even now. Here some WoW information for you if you not belive my words and screenshots
The high elves are in a state of diaspora. Most reside in human cities like Stormwind, Theramore, or Dalaran. Others live in seclusion in the wild forests, often in hunting lodges such as Farstrider Lodge.
With the reopening of the dark portal, the remnants of the Alliance Expedition's high elven ranger cadre were reconnected with Azeroth. After learning of the Scourge invasion of Quel'Thalas and their brethren's allegiance to Kael'thas Sunstrider, many of the survivors chose to remain in Outland. High elves are currently stationed at Allerian Stronghold and they have also taken up refuge in Shattrath City.
You can distinquish them easely - High Elvas have Blue or Violete eyes glowing, Blood Elves have Green eyes glowing after use of corrupt engerdy of disorder.

Same as Chaos orcs and fel orcs - this is DIFFERENT GUYS. Chaos orcs not removed from lore, they still presented, they not changed name of them on RoC even now.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Chaos_orc - chaos orcs
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fel_orc - fel orcs
Only uncanon roleplaying stuff count them as "same".
And you know that there NO CHAOS ORCS IN WARHAMMER sincle like I don't know, 80s because now warhammer universe not allowing this at all? There was orcs favoring khorne or something, but it was in times of INQUISITOR OBI WAN, HALF-ELDAR SPACE MARINE and much more wierd shit that was both in FB and in 40K removed during 90s. Like I bet you didn't know that genesteallersand tyranids was not related, or that way back genesteallers can even corrupt orks... And Chaos was not created by Warhammer obviously.

>Wyvern
and still and wyverns, and all things related to them still exist in all games, in that frozen throne Wyverns metioned by it's name and wyverns is most common flying mount for horde like even now most probably thought I not played last wow patches. It obvious that GW can't copyright medival folklore names.

For other units change - it kinda not same units. They have differet stats and both reffered in manuals.
>In Warcraft III, gyrocopters and flying machines were different. The former had both a rotor system and engines on the sides. They were then upgraded into flying machines during The Frozen Throne. Nowadays the two terms are interchangeable. See Gyrocopter (Warcraft III) and Flying Machine (Warcraft III).

But again, if it was copyright strike, they will change this names in RoC too, compleatly erise their existence same as with joke phrease about warhammer you metioned above. But Steamtanks and Gyrocopters are still presented in WoW, Chaos orcs are in lore too - there just no more of them, High Elves was, exist now, and will exist in future.

>staff retconned their game to be less generic
Why not? There a lot same changes in Frozen Throne. Night Evles Ballista become Glaive Thrower since.. well second throw more cool shit and have more cool name than just be rip-off of Human balista from warcraft 2.

Funny that you most probably not noticed that in campain of Warcraft 3 and it's addon a lot units and things that was used only once or even more rare. Like in one of cutscenes there used high elf healer model but with human ears. In some campains there are different structures and different units for same factions - like in start of allience campain and in some other scenarios of undead campain you fight against orc clans that still hide in blackrock moutian and stulluse warcraft 2 buildings and units like pig farms, red dragons and warlocks that not avalible for "thrall's horde". Same as in undead campain in quel'thalas you fight against "high elves" sub-faction with high elf builders and barracks and swordsmans. Builders you can use then in Alliance campain in frozen throne. All this, with shipyards and all ships for every faction, unfinished Naga race, and more - just result of how many cut content both in RoC and TFT, with hell lot of wierd shit that obviosly remained in games from times when they was way different and represent chaos in development of this games.

Fuck, why I'am even posting all this? You most probably will ignoe it and say "I don't want your lore" anyway. Will just post very old warhammer stuff just to say that this post worthed something
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No. 8425
>>8422
I've read all the stuff you post, I'm aware of all the lore stuff you've posted already, I just don't adress it.

How about this. I don't like Skyrim, you don't like Skyrim. You said before that it's quite likely that Skyrim ripped off GoT with their visual cues etc. Well, I really don't think so. Skyrim was announced before GoT and the first season of GoT and Skyrim both came out during the same year. So I honeslty don't think that Skyrim ripped off GoT. Just not enough time imo. If Skyrim did take their visual cues from somewhere, it's more likely that they took them from Warcraft than GoT. Could you at least agree on this? At this point I'm just testing whether it's even possible for me to convince you about anything.
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No. 8427
>>8425
Skyrim - maybe you right there, I just pointed out that it is really look like GoT. Maybe GoT tv series makers ripped off some visuals, maybe it is coincedence happened since both of them looks kinda generic and both of them ripp of historical things. There I don't really care even for arguing. I kinda was butthurt by skyrim, but not that much, since after Oblivion it was obvious that they not care in developing interesting universe or interesting games eather. Now I only monitoring how possibly dumb they can get, considering all this recent announses of shitty mobile game, fallout multiplayer meme and all this Elder Scrolls Online shit that even more dumb than TES5 there are no limit.
And I additionaly don't care much since there mods for TES3 in developmentalready that creating lore-version and of Cyrodiil and of Skyrim.

And if you call GoT rip-off of skyrim or skyrim rip-off of GoT - it be like absoluetly equal for them. Funny that there even some rumors (false) that Todd developed GoT game lol

>At this point I'm just testing whether it's even possible for me to convince you about anything.
I arguing not for arguing. I also not try to change mind of anyone and I will easely change mind if someone provide me actual proofs and unbreakable arguments for position. Today I learned that blizz at one point really wanted to make FB game, and even they screaped idea ieraly, it is fact to me now thought before I knowed only about such rumors.
Other your arguments, sadly, was not that much correct.
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No. 8428
>>8427
Yeah, it's just that I've read all this stuff from warcraft related forums in which the warcraft fans themselves talk about how steamtank was changed to steam engine and even the appearance was changed because GW was pressuring Blizzard which back then was much smaller company than it is now. I think GW and Blizzard came to some agreement which resulted in the name changes of some units between Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne. Some of it is pretty retarded like how orc catapult was changed to demolisher even though catapult is the most generic war machine imaginable, yet it still happened. I just find it odd that you weren't aware of it yet.

These days of course Activision-Blizzard is such a huge company that they can do whatever they want and GW can't do shit about it but back when Reign of Chaos was released that wasn't the case yet.
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No. 8430
>>8428
>which the warcraft fans
There is problem - in many ways it just fans talks, and some of changes just to bizzare to count that it is GW forced them to change. And as I said, things like Gyrocopters with it's name re-apperead less then year after release of TFT , before activision stuff.. And there a lot differences between RoC and TFT that was just absoluetly out of random.
>I just find it odd that you weren't aware of it yet.
Warcraft III is one of those games that have bestter russian localisation than original. They mistaked some names adn poninsuation with kinda very variaty translation from original (for example, Tauren still called Minotaur, like in early alphas of wc3), but overall voice acting done by actual actors and style of texts feels much, much more quality and plesant to hear and more appropriate and honestely say I never ver played WC3 or even WoW on english. And in Rus translation a lot of joke phrases refferences changed, same as names of units already

There a lot of things you can learn if you read about cut stuff from warcraft 3. Now currently I readed that frost wyrms was intended to be Lich ability to summon them by frost magic, so this why they are.. cold blue dragon things. But they was scrapped into units. Sad there not much concretic info remained, I wanted if someone maded a mod for WC3 with much many cutted stuff and scrapped ideas.
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No. 8434
>>8430
Yeah that's why frost wyrms have a birth animation just like spirit wolves and other summons. Something normal units normally lack. You can find quite a lot of cut content simply by toying around with the world editor. There's even some hidden models not shown on the unit palette like that skeleton with a burning bow string etc.
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads/hidden-resources-in-the-we-with-screenshots.116845/
Like when you check the path of unit
> Units\Demon\ChaosOrcRange\ChaosOrcRange.mdl
Its in the "Demon" folder instead of orc/creep/whatever. Demons were supposed to be the 5th playable race at one point but I guess balancing 4 races was already hard enough so they ditched the idea. I think that's even confirmed in some interview.
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No. 8454
>>8434
>Its in the "Demon" folder instead of orc/creep/whatever. Demons were supposed to be the 5th playable race at one point but I guess balancing 4 races was already hard enough so they ditched the idea. I think that's even confirmed in some interview.
They scrapped idea of Burning Legion as playable race immideatly when they turned from RPG to RTS game. As they said, it was kinda wird that super powerfull ultimate force as burning legion need to harvest gold, wood and build low level units. They dropped chaos orcs in demon folder just because in campain they are allied with demons.
>You can find quite a lot of cut content simply by toying around with the world editor. There's even some hidden models not shown on the unit palette like that skeleton with a burning bow string etc.
Sadly there not actually mutch that remaind as files, like inside game there only two unused proper finished models, including this skeleton, but very similar burning skeletons aready presented in campain, so this is not interesting that much.
A lot "cut" content was adopted in different way in campain as unique units or they changed roles from what they was to begain with, so a lot things we may only suspect what they origginaly was for.
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No. 8463
>>8454
Yeah, that too, but even that 3rd person Warcraft Legends game was still originally going to be a role-playing strategy game like Sacrifice. But also the reason why they decided to not add any more races was due to balancing issues. Goblins were supposed to be a playable race in RoC too but they decided to not add anymore races because it would've been a mess to balance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnrU8iMO6G8

>Sadly there not actually mutch that remaind as files, like inside game there only two unused proper finished models, including this skeleton, but very similar burning skeletons aready presented in campain, so this is not interesting that much.

Nah there's even some recorded audio there with Arthas saying something like "Jaina, no!" etc. It's still there in the game, just unused, and even the official strategy guide says that jaina died. Exactly like I said before in this thread but you didn't believe me. Here I even got an interview with a blizzard developer:
http://pretzel-lectern.blogspot.com/2016/05/behind-warcraft-iii-interview-with.html
> Jaina was supposed to die in a very early draft, but that idea was squashed pretty quickly. Arthas didn't need any more motivation to chase Mal'ganis than he already had, but that was planned to be a main story element. There was supposed to be a love story between Arthas and Jaina, but that didn't work out. It was a bit too Raynor and Kerrigan again, because Jaina was going to become a banshee or something... I don't remember very well, but that plot point obviously got moved to Sylvanas Windrunner. There were a lot of similarities between the Starcraft and WarCraft 3 plotlines, to the point where the first few drafts got sent back multiple times.
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No. 8470
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>>8463
>Exactly like I said before in this thread but you didn't believe me. Here I even got an interview with a blizzard developer:
I not sayed you was incorrect, I said that there was like 9000 different variants of plot, characters and events, and most of changes come from technical stuff. One of Alpha versions of Warcraft3 included actual Lord of the Clans plot in them (most probably one that was still more RPG than RTS) that slowely moved to events of Warcraft 3. There was other Alpha plots, but about them knowed much less exept some facts, like that games also focused on goblins and exept them as race had fully playable campain and related locations. Also there renders or Garona done for example, but there absoluetly no clue what she suposed to do in this early drafts of story.
It also suspection, but they may have multiple options for player when game was more RPG-like, where for example, you may choose who die or who become traitor.
And don't forget that this is only information of late RPG-early RTS part of development. There also was beta,that was much clother to finish, but still hell lot of things was changed during it, like music was comleatly changed
My favorite beta track is this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCuUhITZum0
It like full of atmosphere of warcraft between 2 and 3, in times of Lord of the Clans, I really like this atmopsphere.

>also the reason why they decided to not add any more races was due to balancing issues. Goblins were supposed to be a playable race in RoC too but they decided to not add anymore races because it would've been a mess to balance.
If say short, RoC was a total mess - one of thos games that had horrible development cycle and we end with not complete version of game, where a lot of things and ideas scrapped.
TFT was unfinished, they even done one of the cinematics it almost in-game graphics. Same time majority of team already worked on finishing WoW.

Honestely, I don't dream about "what if goblins" become playable faction. I also don't really understand how you may put burning legion as standart playable faction. However, I really butthurt that naval part of game was cut. All shipyards for all factions models already was done. In game in campain for example Human and Undead shipyards presented and have full sets of all ships. They also have button icons to "build" them that unused. Night Evles have different ships and there also remained unused button for shipyards. Orcs if I remember correctly use goblin shipyard, but there models of their ships, even warcraft 2 dreadnoths, and there also a lot ship related stuff. I bet that in demo campain with exodus of horde, half of which was cut and moved as "additional campain" in TFT initialy involved tutorial how to fix and build and operate ships, and it was too obviously cut.
And for me, this is one of reasons why Nagas in TFT never made it to be fully playable race - their main power and specialisation meant to be water, and since all proper water gameplay was almost cut from game, whole idea to add them was scrapped, even so many units, buildings and even hero was created and playble in campain or as neutral ones.
For me, Naval stuff was one of most important memes of warcraft in 2nd game, where almost all maps even in campain is islands and ships have dedicated resourse for them: "oil".
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No. 15798
25 kB, 485 × 443
I think it might be neat if someone made a fantasy setting where archaic hominins like Homo erectus, Homo floriensis, Homo naledi, Neanderthals, Denisovans, Australopithecines and so on persist into the Bronze Age for some reason. Since we're still not entirely sure why advanced hominins other than ourselves like Neanderthals went extinct, you would have a decent amount of license to play around with the premise.

Incidentally, Michael Crichton wrote a book about Norse adventurers encountering a relict population of Neanderthals, although I have not read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead
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No. 16462 Kontra
>>8470
>>8278
It still hurts.
I loved warcraft 2 as a kid and loved point and click adventure games. Two genres that are deadish. The old style adventure games usually are sort of gimmicky.
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No. 16475
>>
No. 16874
924 kB, 1152 × 1144
I think this is the best place where to post it: Picture done if 2 styles of more general classic fantasy style of 70-90s and in modern (more or less, at least mid-late 00s-mid10s) general fantasy fashion.
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No. 17107
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>>16874
Old school pen & paper RPG, modern
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No. 17128 Kontra
>>16475
Thanks for sharing. Seems ebin.

polite sage
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No. 17149
>>16874
>the male fantasy

Had a good laugh there, thanks. In both cases the artist knew shit about figure drawing, pretty much every posture in both images is utter bogus.
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No. 17166 Kontra
>>17107
That second cover, was there any reason to have such a lustful cover? Is it a new setting where it's Bacchanalia everyday? I know gays and acceptance of them are something companies want to cater to and champion to some degree as good business and PR practice but it does seem odd in the PnP realm because of the open-ended nature of the whole practice.
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No. 17192 Kontra
>>17166
At first I thought this cover is a parody or something.
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No. 17196
>>16874
you have a pretty strange image in your head of fantasy art of the 70-80s
the stuff in your pic is more like about the early 00s and the mid 00s (as I recall, the upper one was commissioned in the very late 90s)
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No. 17207
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>>17166
second box with the gays on cover contains 2 erotic group adventures and an erotic solo adventure. the story takes place in the rather hedonistic city of belhanka, which is the home of the church of rahja (rahja is in the world of das schwarze auge the godess of lust and sexuality). there a missing prostitute lures the party into a demonic brothel...
the solo adventure is also set at the time of an event in belhanka called "feast of joy", which is basically a giant orgy with no limits. to be honest the cover fits the adventures pretty well. and i don't see das schwarze auge being taking over by LGBT/idpol cancer either (which is what the /kohl/pol/ poster up there probably wanted to suggest).
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No. 17208
>>17166
The title roughly means "sense-frenzy and lust", so the motif is fitting. It's the first time I've seen any male homosexuality on a P&P rule/adventure book, mind you. Compared to how many versions of >>16874 I've seen, I'd say it's about time the gay players get some fan service.

Alas, I haven't played DSA in over 10 years. Hence, take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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No. 17212
2,3 MB, 1024 × 1255
>>17196
That is the original Everquest Splash image, or cover image and the blonde lady to the left was featured prominently in much of the art for many years.

>>17207
Ahhh interesting, I guess I mostly figured it huh. How does a solo adventure work? I guess it's good art in the sense that you can figure out a lot at a glance.
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No. 17238
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>>17212
well, you're master and hero at the same time. i think doing group adventures with a group and meister (game leader) are the real thing, however doing solo adventures written with a strict setting and story work too if you are alone most of the time, because you struggle with socializing.

also, i like the style of that ever quest cover very much. it's kinda in the style of earlier dsa cover art, which i much prefer over more recent official dsa artwork.
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No. 17253
>>17196
Look at this dragons and monster-trolls - fashon on creatures like that ended somewhere in mid 90s compleatly.
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No. 17255
>>17107
We have another kohl invaston, right?
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No. 17265 Kontra
>>17255
It's already over
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No. 17278
741 kB, 1024 × 573
>>15798
>eaters of the dead
i really love the film adaption of crichton's book called "the 13th warrior", starring antonio banderas. great film with a great atmosphere, although a surviving neanderthal colony in the early high middle ages as antagonists in the story is far from what historians would consider possible. the last known homo s. n. colony died on the iberian peninsula during the würm ii/iii glacial/interstadial, that is roughly about 35,000 years ago before the dawn of the neolithicum and bronze age. i'm aware wer'e talking about fantasy settings, however i'm afraid that real history of humankind (in europe) as inspiration doesn't has a lot to offer for epic rpg lore involving both homo n. and homo s., since during the paleolithic either were still nomadic hunters and gatherers using only stone tools. it would have to be a 100% "barbarian" setting, which could still be interesting though. it could involve locations and lore on sunken territory.
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No. 17284
>>17278
I always wonder what we were doing for ten thousand years. Like what exactly was humanity up to from say 25,000BC to 15,000BC?
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No. 17289
>>17284
Hunting and gathering probably. Maybe exploiting wild cereals a bit in the areas that transitioned to agriculture first.
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No. 17298
123 kB, 700 × 292
>>17284
In times when ocean crushed Atlantis, but before rise of sons of Arius...